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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Taq
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Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 227 of 716 (788223)
07-27-2016 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
07-27-2016 3:49 PM


Re: Temple
Once again though it all comes back to the resurrection. If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding. If the resurrection is not true then the whole point is moot anyway.
As I said in my other reply if Jesus wasn't resurrected then He would simply have been another failed messiah and His followers would simply have disappeared back to their fishing etc.
That doesn't make much sense. The Messiah prophecies call for the Messiah to defeat the enemies of Israel. Whether some dude resurrects from the dead or not, the Messiah still has to conquer those enemies.
Using the Donald Trump analogy from another post, if you prophesize that Donald Trump will win the general election you can't come back and claim the prophecy is fulfilled because Donald Trump wore a red tie during his concession speech.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 243 of 716 (788259)
07-28-2016 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
07-27-2016 4:52 PM


Re: Temple
One could argue that the very thing that makes an enemy an enemy is the bad spirit within them. Some argue that we humans have the means and responsibility to do what is right. Others argue that the very thing that causes wars is intrinsic evil...greed...idolatry....lust....pride....etc.
By resurrecting from the dead, the Messiah conquered the enemy. It is now up to us to give Him the territory He conquered.
The enemies weren't conquered, though. The Jews were promptly conquered by the Romans. History is replete with examples of Jews suffering at the hands of their enemies.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 279 of 716 (788351)
07-29-2016 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by GDR
07-28-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
But Jesus redefined the enemy with the enemy being evil itself with the ultimate evil being death.
If you get to redefine the enemy, then I could be the Messiah. Anybody could be the Messiah.
If you have to redefine the prophecies, then that is sure sign that you didn't fulfill the prophecies.

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 Message 247 by GDR, posted 07-28-2016 12:43 PM GDR has replied

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 Message 302 by GDR, posted 08-04-2016 6:21 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 316 of 716 (789498)
08-15-2016 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by GDR
08-04-2016 6:21 PM


Re: Temple
It was a case of redefining the prophesies but simply announcing one cohesive understanding of them.
I could do that, too, and have myself as the fulfillment of that new cohesive understanding. Anyone could do it.
As soon as the prophecies can say whatever you want them to say, then they really aren't prophecies anymore.
The prophesies weren't dictated word for word by God but had come through centuries of prophets and others trying to determine the nature of there one true God and how they were to respond. Some got it more right than others. Jesus was the fulfillment of the scriptures but not in the way that many had hoped.
How do you determine objectively who got the interpretation right?

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 Message 302 by GDR, posted 08-04-2016 6:21 PM GDR has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 324 of 716 (793023)
10-18-2016 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by GDR
10-18-2016 9:21 AM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is enthroned and given dominion over the nations by the "Ancient of Days".
Except Jesus wasn't enthroned and had dominion over no lands. In fact, the Jews were conquered by the Romans soon after the claimed resurrection. So much for prophesy.

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 Message 323 by GDR, posted 10-18-2016 9:21 AM GDR has replied

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 Message 326 by GDR, posted 10-20-2016 6:42 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 327 of 716 (793250)
10-24-2016 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by GDR
10-20-2016 6:42 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
But that misses the point entirely. His whole message was that the Romans weren't the real enemy. It was evil itself that was the enemy, and evil isn't defeated militarily but with sacrificial love.
Nowhere does it say that in the Old Testament prophecies. In all of the prophecies it talks about physically conquering the enemies of Israel.
What you have in the NT is a perversion of the prophecies so that anyone can fulfill them. I could fulfill them. All I need to do is pronounce that I have defeated some invisible evil in some invisible way, and POOOF!!!, I'm the Messiah.

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 Message 326 by GDR, posted 10-20-2016 6:42 PM GDR has replied

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 Message 328 by GDR, posted 10-24-2016 7:46 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 330 of 716 (793303)
10-25-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by GDR
10-24-2016 7:46 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
So what. That is my point. Jesus essentially said that they had misinterpreted the prophesies.
That's what a false Messiah would say when he failed to fulfill the prophecies.
Ok, but the credibility of what Jesus said and did is in the resurrection.
I also resurrected:
Taq 1:1 On the third day, Taq arose from the dead.
I am now as much a Messiah as Jesus.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 328 by GDR, posted 10-24-2016 7:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 7:36 PM Taq has replied
 Message 337 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-26-2016 4:30 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 339 of 716 (793515)
10-31-2016 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by GDR
10-25-2016 7:36 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
We went through that earlier in this thread. He did fulfill the prophesies but not in the way people expected.
Then he didn't fulfill the prophecies. Sorry, but you don't get to change the prophecies when you fail to fulfill them.
Good luck pulling that off.
I already did it. I am the Messiah by every measure that Jesus is.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by NoNukes, posted 11-01-2016 5:54 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 343 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 8:34 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 420 of 716 (806455)
04-25-2017 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
04-25-2017 3:29 PM


Re: The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
Faith writes:
He's tracking down Biblical references, principally trying to find out what the "star" was that the wise men followed.* (He concludes it was a close conjunction of two planets that would have been very bright to the naked eye), and explains how it "stopped" over the town of Bethlehem.
You can find stars above Bethlehem every night of every year.

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 Message 419 by Faith, posted 04-25-2017 3:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
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