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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 61 of 716 (703715)
07-28-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Eliyahu
07-27-2013 1:20 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Christianity is unable to prove from the Biblical text of Isaiah 53 that the servant of God, whom the text describes, is a messianic figure. The text does not speak about a king or a ruler, nowhere is spoken about a descendent of David or Jesse, and the word ‘messiah’ is nowhere used in Isaiah 53. Since this is the only text Christianity has to back up their fairy tale of a suffering and dying messiah, they grasp at straws.
While I think you make a good argument, I find the argument somewhat irrelevant at least for me. As a non Jew born thousands of years after the events in the Old Testament, I am struggling just a bit to understand why I should care that Jesus was or was not the military leader that some Jews were anticipating. I can accept the usefulness of having the Jews of the day accept that concept. I can even accept that the Luke or whoever was the author of Luke and Acts firmly believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, but isn't that issue pretty much irrelevant for me? I think so.
After all, the essence of Christianity is, or at least ought to be Christ's teachings, example, and promises. Jesus was so different from what the Jews were expecting that for them, perhaps every possible tie of Jesus to OT scriptures was important. For me, not so much.
Of course carrying around all of the baggage does provide "fundies" with yet another hammer to whack Jews with, in their efforts to, as Ann Coulter has said, "Perfect them". And apparently fundies like to do exactly that.
In any event, isn't "failed prophecy" something of an oxymoron? If something did not happen, how could it have been foretold?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 1:20 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Iblis, posted 07-28-2013 3:54 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 63 by kofh2u, posted 07-28-2013 8:40 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 66 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 12:52 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 716 (703726)
07-29-2013 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Iblis
07-28-2013 3:54 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
with them as the best boys and no fun whatsoever for anyone else, is the exact same god expected to return any minute now by fundamentalist Christians? Isn't it nice to know that Jesus isn't him?
Wow. That's quite convoluted. I can honestly say that I've never held such a thought. But I guess that it wouldn't be the first thing fundies were ever wrong about. I take more pleasure in noting that Jesus is pretty far left of the average stone-casting fundy.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Iblis, posted 07-28-2013 3:54 PM Iblis has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 76 of 716 (703773)
07-29-2013 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 12:52 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
It is of course very important to know that Christianity is a false religion, so that you will not be led into idolatry and paganism by it, all the mean while thinking that you are serving God.
I don't see that you've proven or even attempted to demonstrate anything like that. It has been argued that that there are "prophecies" that Jesus did not fulfill. It has been further argued that calling those things prophecies may well be unjustified in the first place. While those arguments might well be enough to explain why Jesus was not what the Jews were expecting, those arguments do not show that Jesus was not divine.
Ask yourself this. If Jesus was the Jewish messiah, would he then be acceptable for worship? If the answer is no, and I believe the answer is no, then you are making a bad argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 12:52 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Eliyahu, posted 07-31-2013 2:49 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 716 (703893)
07-30-2013 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
07-30-2013 12:18 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
What do your creeds say about this....seems as if it has happened....
Yes, Christ was resurrected and holds the keys. But did Jesus actually say this stuff to John? Because that, and not the resurrection itself, is the event described in Revelations.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 07-30-2013 12:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 716 (703991)
08-01-2013 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Eliyahu
07-31-2013 2:49 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
No normal Christian will deny that those prophecies are messianic prophecies.
Some will and some won't.
What those prophecies show. is that those prophecies are NOT fuflilled by JC, and that therefore he was not the messiah.
They are not prophecies about Jesus and so far they are not prophecies about anyone else either.
and about him being divine: No human being is divine. Only God is divine.
So you assert. But you haven't produced a shred of evidence or even argument about that. You haven't even produce an argument that not being the messiah as you define it is even relevant.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Eliyahu, posted 07-31-2013 2:49 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:25 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 97 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:39 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 716 (704013)
08-02-2013 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Eliyahu
08-02-2013 12:25 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
You miss the point. I suspect that you are simply dismissing the point in pursuit of some agenda that really isn't relevant to the OP.
Jesus did not do what was described above. But I ask, so what? Isn't it only a person who is counting on those words to be literal and fulfilled who ought to be the slightest bit bothered?
That prophecy is irrelevant to the question of whether Jesus is Lord. I don't see any reason to make an attempt to shoehorn Jesus ministry into also being the slaughterer of Jewish enemies.
If this "prophecy" turns out to be utterly wrong, and the messiah never comes, then it is not prophecy at all, is it?
This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah.
A rationalization that I find totally unnecessary. Jesus failure to be a military leader 2000 years ago is no failure at all in my eyes. It is akin to me noting that Usain Bolt wasn't a great miler. Is that some kind of failure?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:25 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 1:08 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 1:22 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 716 (704023)
08-02-2013 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by PaulK
08-02-2013 1:22 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
First, Eliahyu is arguing from a Jewish perspective - assuming the truth of the Judaic religion. From that point of view the question of how Jesus fits into the views of Judaism is vitally important.
I believe I've acknowledged that part of Eliahyu's position, while dismissing it as a major concern for me. Eliahyu thinks my dismissal is nonsense, but makes no substantial argument for it other than to quote even more unfulfilled scripture.
Also we must not forget that Christianity is founded on the premise that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah
Christianity was founded among Jews, but has grown considerably beyond that. Christianity, at least for gentiles, does not absolutely require all Christ to be a military leader. And even if Jesus is not the Jewish military leader, the story according to the Gospels is that he was acknowledged directly by God as his Son, performed miracles etc.
inally I must say that it seems odd to deny that Jesus was a failure. It seems to me that he set out to prove himself the Messiah - and establish a free Jewish kingdom in the lifetime of his followers.
Show me support for the proposition that Jesus tried to establish an earthly kingdom in his time, and I'll agree that you have made a substantial argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 1:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 9:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 716 (704033)
08-02-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by PaulK
08-02-2013 9:45 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
And the reason you say that is because you're NOT adequately taking his position into account. THat scripture, to him IS decisive.
I think I have acknowledged that too. It seems to be only Eliahyu who thinks his logic ought to be decisive to both of us. I am not trying to convince Eliahyu to adopt my position. I am only trying to point out the holes in his argument.
However there are certainly indications that way. e.g. the crucifixion indicates that the Romans thought of him as a rebel.
Apparently a lot of people at the time did think that Jesus was going to free the Jews from the Romans. But the Gospels pretty much describe the Jews being the ones who were angry about Jesus with the Romans being largely indifferent.
Riding on a donkey into Jerusalem makes the identification with the King of Zechariah 9. The use of Daniel in the Olivet discourse suggests that he believed that Daniel's kingdom of God would arrive soon.
I don't find those arguments very compelling. Perhaps it is start. It is at least an argument.
Of course there's very little GOOD evidence about what Jesus did or did not do.
Right, which why I am surprised that you would attempt this line of argument.
More difficult to answer are questions about why Jesus did not fulfill his own prophecies, but questions about why he did not fulfill some ancient Jewish scripture that may be wishful thinking on the part of an an oppressed people are quite easy for me to dismiss.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 9:45 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:04 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 716 (704035)
08-02-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
08-02-2013 10:10 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Which does not entail arguing that he is right. But I think we can justifiably argue that if a Jewish understanding of the Jewish scriptures points to Jesus not being the messiah at all then there is a real problem with Christian claims that needs to be addressed.
A problem with what some Christians insist on, yes. But Jesus can be the Son of God without doing a single thing the Jews were, and perhaps still are expecting their messiah to do. And aren't some of those predictions about what the messiah is supposed to accomplished already out of reach anyway? Why isn't that a problem.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 10:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:08 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 716 (704061)
08-02-2013 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
08-02-2013 11:04 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
But you're missing the hidden assumption that Judaism is correct.
Why would I accept that assumption in an argument that is essentially about whether Judaism is correct?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 9:06 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 2:07 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 716 (704071)
08-02-2013 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by kofh2u
08-02-2013 9:06 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
srael, that Suffering Servant, now has manifested as the messiah
What? I though you were the messiah???

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 9:06 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by kofh2u, posted 08-03-2013 7:58 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 716 (704072)
08-02-2013 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by PaulK
08-02-2013 11:08 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
That's a very different question to whether Jesus was The Messiah or not. Really it's off-topic.
Perhaps it is off topic. But it is totally responsive to the discussion to the points being raised here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:08 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 2:11 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 716 (704093)
08-03-2013 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by PaulK
08-03-2013 2:07 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
The real question is why you would insist on talking at cross-purposes for no reason.
We are having a debate which means that I might choose to explore areas on which we disagree. At some point, we will of course have to stop arguing and drop things. You think I am beyond that point, but that's just your opinion.
I believe a perfectly good response to the question of why the Christian messiah failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies is that Jesus is not the Jewish messiah.
I made that argument and the OP responds to the effect that Jesus not being the messiah means that he is not worthy of worship. Now maybe a response to that statement is off topic, but it is certainly no more off topic than is the OP's comment.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 2:07 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:01 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 716 (704097)
08-03-2013 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by PaulK
08-03-2013 5:01 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
And I'd agree. But it's a problematic answer for a Christian, in so much as it says that Jesus is not the Christ.
I disagree, but isn't it your position that pursuing this point is off topic?
Most Christians handle this issue by insisting that Christ will handle the unfulfilled portions in a 'Second Coming'. I personally don't see the point in assuming any such thing. I simply do not care that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.
Actually, it looks to me as if you made that up. He only argued that Christianity is a fake religion,
Well, you are simply wrong about that. He stated in Message 66 that worship of Jesus was idolatry, which led to my pointing out that his arguments up to that point, even if taken as correct, did not require such a conclusion. At some point during that line of discussion, you intervened to tell me Eliyahu was simply assuming that Judaism was correct. Thanks, but I already knew that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:01 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 716 (788205)
07-27-2016 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by LamarkNewAge
07-26-2016 7:00 PM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
A fundamentalist should see Jesus as performing magic tricks to create fake fish to eat (not real meat).
Except that the text talks about collecting the fish from folks before feeding the multitude. Apparently somebody was eating fish. Jesus performed a miracle in which cast nets came up brimming full of fish. (Luke 5:7, John 21:6) Some of the disciples were fishermen by trade. I don't think the fake fish guess holds up all that well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 7:00 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:49 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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