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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 691 of 716 (807538)
05-03-2017 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by Faith
05-03-2017 4:42 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:

Fiction does try to sound like truth you know.


That's what I'm saying. You can't take the word of fiction that fiction is true.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 4:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 10:38 PM ringo has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15037
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 692 of 716 (807542)
05-03-2017 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 682 by Faith
05-02-2017 3:52 PM


Summing up Larson
Larson seems to be trying to fit the evidence to his beliefs.

He starts by trying to find astronomical events which could explain the story of the Star of Bethlehem in astrological terms, and uses that to date Jesus birth.

This has two big problems. First the astrological interpretations seem to be his invention - there is no good reason to think that ancient astrologers would agree, adding to the implausibility of a story that is already quite implausible even with the unlikely movements of the star removed. Second, the date of Herod's death is quite well established as 4BC and is more likely a little earlier than later.

Also it does not fit too well with the text of Matthew, which is the only source for the story. Although the former should only be of great concern for those who require the Bible to be absolutely reliable - Matthew must be misleading through misunderstanding and omission for Larson to be correct.

Larson's view on the image from Revelation 12 are also questionable. While the chapter contains a couple of other images that could be astrological (but may well not be), the "crowned with twelve stars" seems to be another Larson invention, and most of the chapter seems to have other symbolism in mind. More, Larson associates the astrological configuration with the conception (for some reason) but the woman in the vision is giving birth. So, again, this looks like the link is more in Larson's mind than in the intended meaning of the text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 3:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 5:54 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31649
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 693 of 716 (807544)
05-03-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 692 by PaulK
05-03-2017 5:32 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
Have you seen ANY of the video?

Everything you've said here is a million miles from the video

Or anything I was trying to say for that matter.
/
/

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by PaulK, posted 05-03-2017 5:32 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 12:17 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 699 by Faith, posted 05-04-2017 10:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31649
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 694 of 716 (807555)
05-03-2017 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by ringo
05-03-2017 4:49 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Where do you get your arrogance? Millions upon millions know that John is a real person who wrote Revelation and four other books of the Bible. A lot of people also know that Melville wrote fiction. How dare you claim otherwise?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by ringo, posted 05-03-2017 4:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 696 by jar, posted 05-04-2017 7:46 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 697 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 8:42 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 702 by ringo, posted 05-04-2017 11:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15037
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 695 of 716 (807556)
05-04-2017 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
05-03-2017 5:54 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
I have seen bits of it and those confirmed what I said. It was even worse than I expected.

Of course it is also based on what you have told me - if you have badly misrepresented Larson (something you admittedly have done with other sources) it is time for you to admit it and take responsibility.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 5:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 696 of 716 (807588)
05-04-2017 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Faith
05-03-2017 10:38 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:

Millions upon millions know that John is a real person who wrote Revelation and four other books of the Bible.

While there may be millions upon millions of people who believe that is true there is not even one that actually knows it is true and all of the evidence is that it is certainly not true.

The only part of that statement of your that is true is that it is likely the author of Revelation was a real person.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 10:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 697 of 716 (807592)
05-04-2017 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Faith
05-03-2017 10:38 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Where do you get your arrogance? Millions upon millions know that John is a real person who wrote Revelation and four other books of the Bible.

Faith, this is a debate site. There are arguments for and against Revelations being written by Apostle John both based on the text and on non-textual information. Most Bible scholars believe that John the Apostle did write revelations. But disagreeing does not make you arrogant.

Millions of folks believe in any Bible doctrine, yet millions of other folk who revere Christ equally well disagree. At least one set of folks is wrong. Is the answer that the wrong group is the most arrogant, or the most vociferous?

Just present your argument. You will convince some but not all. Then chill a bit.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 10:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 9:31 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 700 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:21 AM NoNukes has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15037
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 698 of 716 (807600)
05-04-2017 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by NoNukes
05-04-2017 8:42 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
quote:

Most Bible scholars believe that John the Apostle did write revelations.

I think that is wrong, most Bible scholars do not believe that the Apostle wrote the Revelation. And the text does not go any further than claiming the name "John", which was not unique even then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 8:42 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 4:08 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31649
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 699 of 716 (807606)
05-04-2017 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
05-03-2017 5:54 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
I have some questions for Larson myself. I don't know why he started the astronomy presentation with Jupiter and Regulus. I want to know what led him there in the first place. He had said something about the planets being possible candidates for the star, Jupiter in particular, but the conjunctions with Regulus aren't about the star. I think he recognized it's the first part of the drama so should be presented first, but that isn't the place to start with people who need to follow his own searching process to get to that point.

When he then shows the constellations, that Jupiter and Regulus are doing their "starry dance" in the sign of Leo, and then especially when he shows Virgo rising behind Leo "clothed with the sun and the moon beneath her feet" I'm convinced he's found something worth thinking about, but I'd still rather know how he got there, how did he choose September of 3BC in the first place? The star isn't there after all. Even though he suggests it could be the birth of Christ, where is the star? The idea that it's the Annunciation gains weight when he finds the bright conjunction of Jupiter with Venus nine months later, which of course has to take into account the meaning of those two planets as well.

I want to see the dates more clearly too. When did Jupiter start passing Regulus, what was the date? How long did the three passes take? Did they lead right up to Rosh Hashana or overlap it or what?

I don't think he started out looking for astrological meanings, but as soon as these things show up on the program there is no way to ignore their astrological meanings. And I don't see how they could just be dismissed as coincidences because there is too much there. People who think that have no idea that the number of variations, permutations and combinations, is far beyond any such possibility; or that such correspondences could just be made up -- aren't taking into account that these objects in the sky have traditional fixed meanings. But the most striking one in any case is the fact that the Virgo image is exactly what John saw. (The twelve stars on her head don't have to be part of the constellation for this basic fact to be true; in John's vision they identify her as Israel or daughter of Israel, or even may refer to the Zodiac.

The image itself of sun and moon in Virgo, which traditionally represents a woman, in the particular positions described by John, is all by itself an undeniable connection between the Bible and the stars. Far beyond any possibility of coincidence. Staggering really. And I do mean "undeniable." And its rising on Rosh Hashana adds MUCH weight to its connection with Israel. (Would John have known anything about the constellations: About the position of Virgo at Rosh Hashana? I'd like to know. Jewish law certainly forbids astrology, but prophecy refers to signs in the sky and even commands knowledge of them. So if these are such signs then they aren't the forbidden astrology; but if they are the forbidden astrology, what are the signs in the sky?

Even though Larson finds the bright Jupiter-Venus conjunction nine months later he is still not sure if it's Christ's birth date or the previous date is, where there is no appearance of anything that could be the star.

Then I'd like to know how long that conjunction lasted. If it's what the Magi saw in Babylon how did they know it was about the birth of a Jewish king? Since the conjunction wouldn't last long enough to be their guide to Bethlehem, why doesn't Larson talk about its being the much less bright Jupiter alone they follow?

Then they arrive in Bethlehem six months after the appearance of the bright conjunction, so Jesus would have been six months old. At that age would he have been referred to by the Greek term that usually means a child of toddler age, which he is called in scripture at the time of their visit? Could be, but that wasn't made clear. It's interesting that Jupiter came to its stop before turning retrograde on December 25th but that needs more discussion of details to be sure of it.

I think it's very striking when the blood moon rises after the crucifixion at the feet of the constellation Virgo. And touching. I would like to know exactly what time it rose though.

I don't think any of these questions discredit the study, I would imagine they would raise issues that would leave most audiences frustrated, but that if they were carefully answered they might add weight to Larson's conclusions.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 5:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 5:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 493 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 700 of 716 (807614)
05-04-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by NoNukes
05-04-2017 8:42 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
No Nukes, you are telling the wrong side of the debate to chill a bit. Faith is chilling and keeping under control, but it is friustrating when the opposition to prophecy and design denies everything that is written, with their so called debates of one sentence.

The oppsotion to faith, love and design needs to chill in their negative responses and post something substantial. They need to learn to stand behind a statement of theirs.

Faiths responses to them are appropriate and she and I and Jesus are winning the debate. Of course, the opposition being atheists and evolutionists have to fight every prophecy as unfilled or bogus or unsubstantiated because even one prophecy shows design and control, and these atheists, evolutionists and deniers have to deny even one, let alone ALL of them as fulfilled. Their whole religion relies on there being NO PROPHECY.

Thats their motivation and hence they deny deny deny without thinking because their minds are absolutely closed.

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/...heciesfulfilledbyJesus.html from JesusisLord website...


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 8:42 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 4:13 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 493 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


(1)
Message 701 of 716 (807615)
05-04-2017 11:27 AM


Revelation confirms and advances all other prophecies
Revelation by the angel that spoke to John, the Revelator spoke the truth. How do you know, because it coincides and fits together with all the writings of all the other prophets of the LORD OF LORDS.

Everything meshes, all time frames mesh, all the scenarios of events mesh, all principles mesh. The proof is in the pudding, it wasn;t imagaination but straight from the Kings WORD.

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/Revelation.html

Mathew 24, 2 Thes 2. Timothy 3, Hosea, Micah, Malachi,Zachariah,,
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, as well as the prophecies of Moses Deuteronomy etc etc etc... all mesh.

Tried and tested and shown to be exactly meshing together as one, describing the direction of time by DESIGN.

Lets let the atheists and evolutionists, time to release a little anger over this truth and these truths.

All prophecies fit together perfectly and exactly.

Lets get it exactly right, as its not a mystery but something we can solve and KNOW.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 702 of 716 (807619)
05-04-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Faith
05-03-2017 10:38 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:

Where do you get your arrogance?


It's the prize at the bottom of a big bag of irony.

Faith writes:

Millions upon millions know that John is a real person who wrote Revelation and four other books of the Bible.


Millions believe that and billions don't.

Faith writes:

A lot of people also know that Melville wrote fiction. How dare you claim otherwise?


The difference is that we do know that Melville existed. If he claimed that Moby Dick was a true story, we'd have much better reason to believe him than to believe what John supposedly wrote.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 10:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 703 of 716 (807669)
05-04-2017 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by PaulK
05-04-2017 9:31 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
I think that is wrong, most Bible scholars do not believe that the Apostle wrote the Revelation.

Well before posting, I did check first. Most of the links I found were from religious sites, so I went with the opinion expressed in Wikipedia. Why do you think that is wrong?

And the text does not go any further than claiming the name "John", which was not unique even then.

The text only names John, yes, but given the paucity of those mentions, I would consider the text to no worse than neutral on the issue.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 9:31 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 4:18 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 704 of 716 (807670)
05-04-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by Davidjay
05-04-2017 11:21 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
No Nukes, you are telling the wrong side of the debate to chill a bit.

I respectfully disagree. Faith was out of control. That has been observed to happen quite frequently.

but it is friustrating when the opposition to prophecy and design denies everything that is written, with their so called debates of one sentence.

You are not required to type your frustration into a post. For one thing, doing so is counterproductive. Secondly, not even Christians agree on either the interpretation of Revelations or the authorship of the text. Taking disagreement personally, particularly on a debate site is silly.

Thats their motivation and hence they deny deny deny without thinking because their minds are absolutely closed.

I expect you to peg the irony meter with your responses, and this response did not disappoint. You don't even acknowledge obvious math errors. Yet you lecture others on being close minded.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:21 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15037
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 705 of 716 (807671)
05-04-2017 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by NoNukes
05-04-2017 4:08 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
quote:

Well before posting, I did check first. Most of the links I found were from religious sites, so I went with the opinion expressed in Wikipedia. Why do you think that is wrong?

It's not even the opinion I saw on Wikipedia


Second century Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Melito the bishop of Sardis, and Clement of Alexandria and the author of the Muratorian fragment identify John the Apostle as the "John" of Revelation.[1] Modern scholarship generally takes a different view,[2] and many consider that nothing can be known about the author except that he was a Christian prophet.[3] Some modern scholars characterise Revelation's author as a putative figure whom they call "John of Patmos"

Book of Revelation

I checked Early Christian Writings first, but from my memory it seems that Revelation nearly got left out of the canon because of doubts concerning authorship.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 4:08 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2017 5:14 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
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