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Author Topic:   If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature....
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 401 of 708 (736794)
09-13-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by Dogmafood
07-09-2014 8:51 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
The uncertainty of the observer has nothing to do with the absoluteness of reality.
No, but it has everything to do with whether the observer can say for certain whether 'absolute reality' exists or not.
And since we agree that we are all observers, then we agree that we cannot, any of us, say that 'absolute reality' exists without being somewhat uncertain; i.e., our conclusion that reality exists cannot be an absolute certain conclusion.
I would also say that it is irrational to maintain doubts about some things. For example, you have children don't you? Do you doubt that you have children? Do you doubt that you love them?
What is rational and what is absolutely, certainly, verifiably true are two different things.
Things are either real or they are not.
Of course. But we cannot know for certain whether they are 'absolutely real'.
If the moon is real then it is absolutely real.
How so? When we say something is 'real', we mean we have examined it with our fallible senses and declared the evidence 'good enough' to conclude, without complete certainty, that the thing we have examined is probably 'real'. But this is not the same as the thing itself being 'absolutely real', existing, beyond any doubt whatsoever, completely outside of our minds in some space we might call 'absolute reality'.
How can it possibly be rational to harbour doubts about the reality of the moon?
We don't harbor doubts about the reality of the moon. We harbor doubts, however small, about the 'absolute reality' of the moon.
When a woman gives birth to a child was she just pregnant or was she absolutely pregnant?
She was 'pregnant'. Why do we have to say that she was 'absolutely pregnant'? In our world and experience, simply saying she was 'pregnant' is good enough; we don't possess the complete certainty to say that she was 'absolutely pregnant'; and since it doesn't really matter if she was 'pregnant' or 'absolutely pregnant', there's really no need to bother with debating the absoluteness of her pregnancy.
If we were to debate it, though, we'd have to come to the conclusion that we cannot be certain she was 'absolutely pregnant' even if we can comfortably say she was 'pregnant'.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Dogmafood, posted 07-09-2014 8:51 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Dogmafood, posted 09-14-2014 10:18 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 432 of 708 (737206)
09-19-2014 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Dogmafood
09-14-2014 10:18 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
I still do not see where the dividing line is between absolute reality and practical reality.
Of course not. Absolute reality is something you can never distinguish from anything elsenot because it doesn't exist separately (it may or may not) but simply because we cannot access that reality outside of the filter of our own experience, through which the distinction between absolute reality, if it exists, and practical reality is erased.
Absolute reality and practical reality appear the same to us because they both pass through the filter of our experience that removes their distinguishing characteristics.
I do not see how it is rational to harbour doubts against all of the evidence.
It depends on what those doubts are. If they are merely academic and have no real bearing on practical decisions, then the rationality of the doubts is practically irrelevant because the doubts themselves are also irrelevant in practice.
Simply doubting the reality of the situation does not seem adequate cause to ignore the evidence.
No one is doubting the 'reality' of any situation and no one advocates ignoring evidence.
I find myself agreeing with JRT's point about non contradiction in that the moon either exists in reality or it does not. One of these conditions must qualify as an absolute reality and therefore there is such a thing as absolute reality.
It depends on what is meant by 'the moon'. Perhaps what exists in 'absolute reality' is far different than what we perceive as 'the moon'. Perhaps if we could authentically access the 'absolute reality'unadulterated by our empirical filterwe would find it so different from what we considered 'the moon' to be that we might conclude that 'the moon' neither exists nor does not exist in 'absolute reality'. We might conclude that the 'absolutely real' entity that has given rise to our practical conception of 'the moon' does not satisfy the criteria required for it to be called 'the moon'. We might find that there isn't even a single 'absolutely real' entity behind our practical conception.
So I do not see how the 'absolute reality' of 'the moon' can be decided in a binary fashion without direct access to the 'absolute reality' of 'the moon'which we do not have.
To be clear, because I foresee your objection, all these things do not hold us back from living full and meaningful lives in the practical world where we accept practical evidence as sufficient and ignore frivolous debates (because that's what this is) when making practical decisions.
On the same coin, the fact that we live in a practical worldwhere we make only practical decisions on the basis of practical evidencedoes not inhibit or influence the existence of an absolute reality that may indeed be precisely as described in our practical understanding; or not.
This is true because, as I've said and I think you will agree, for us empirical beings there is no meaningful distinction between absolute reality and practical reality.
And pointing out, and even accepting, that they are not the same does not change this fact.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Dogmafood, posted 09-14-2014 10:18 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
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