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Author Topic:   If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature....
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 41 of 708 (708161)
10-05-2013 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by JRTjr01
10-05-2013 11:29 PM


Welcome
Welcome to the fray!
Getting the correct ‘Perspective’ is the first step in any scientific endeavor; is it not?
While that is true it is only part of the story.
Science deals with evidence, which in turn is used to construct hypotheses. Those are tested etc. etc. leading to the formulation of theories, which are the single best explanations for a particular set of facts.
The problem I see for your approach is it relies on logic, rather than evidence. Logic is just a way of manipulating data, and it does not guarantee accurate results. If the data is faulty, logic will reach faulty conclusions--logically. That follows Kettering's Law: "Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence."
It would seem that if you are going to discuss, scientifically, the properties and behaviors of deities, as you propose, it would first be necessary to produce evidence that deities exist. Then the scientific method and logic could come into play.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by JRTjr01, posted 10-05-2013 11:29 PM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 10-06-2013 1:07 AM Coyote has replied
 Message 47 by JRTjr01, posted 11-02-2013 10:55 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 44 of 708 (708180)
10-06-2013 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
10-06-2013 1:07 AM


Re: Welcome
I think it could be a useful exercise to postulate that the laws of physics are invariant in form in any reference frames and to discuss the consequences of such a postulate even without collecting evidence that the postulate is true. Would you suggest that such a procedure is unscientific?
No, that's what I would consider to be modeling. That is a very useful tool in science.
However, for a model to accurately reflect reality it must work from evidence and assumptions based on reality.
Adding deities, whose nature and behaviors are based entirely on speculation, to a model would put one in the realm of philosophy or theology more than science no matter how accurately the laws of physics were modeled.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 10-06-2013 1:07 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 10-07-2013 10:27 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2013 10:35 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 48 of 708 (710188)
11-02-2013 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by JRTjr01
11-02-2013 10:55 PM


Re: Logic, a foundational stepping stone for Science.
I agree with you 100% that Science deals with evidence, which in turn is used to construct hypotheses.
However, your argument against logic can also be used against ‘Science’, and everything else for that matter. In any endeavor, if you start off with a faulty premise you’re going to get the wrong answer; would you not agree?
Not only that; but I would go as far as to say if you get faulty information anywhere in an equation you’re going to get something other than the absolute correct answer. You may get something close but sometimes even ‘close’ can be detrimental.
I would also say that Logic is a foundational stepping stone for Science.
I have made no argument against science or logic. I have pointed out that logic can only be useful if the information you are using is useful. This is also true of science, but science has more testing and error correction built in than does logic.
Mr. Coyote writes:
It would seem that if you are going to discuss, scientifically, the properties and behaviors of deities, as you propose, it would first be necessary to produce evidence that deities exist. Then the scientific method and logic could come into play.
I’m sorry; I beg to differ.
The ‘scientific method and logic’ must be used to determine if a deity/deities exist; and if they/it exists then those same method should be employed to determine what roll they/it played/plays in the existence and operation of the universes. Would you not agree?
The scientific method works by first gathering facts, generally through observation. Groups of facts can then be tentatively explained through hypotheses, or, after rigorous testing of those hypotheses, by development of a theory. In other words, science is facts and theories. Facts by themselves lack meaning.
But the scientific method can't operate in the absence of those facts (also called evidence).
I do agree that the scientific method and logic will play a roll, but only after you come up with some evidence (facts).
But the bottom line is--if you want to establish the existence of deities, find some evidence that science can deal with. Then the scientific method and logic can be applied.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by JRTjr01, posted 11-02-2013 10:55 PM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by JRTjr01, posted 11-03-2013 12:21 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 52 of 708 (710193)
11-03-2013 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by JRTjr01
11-03-2013 12:21 AM


Re: Logic, a foundational stepping stone for Science.
I was trying to say that ‘collecting evidence’ is a function of ‘science’; not a prelude to it.
Could you agree with that?
While it is true that collecting evidence is a part of science, not much can be done in science without evidence.
About the only thing I'd think you could do without any evidence at all is highly theoretical modeling. But the results of any model would have to be compared against evidence for them to be of any use. Perhaps the search for dark matter might be an example.
But normally, science begins with data (observations, etc.) and applies the scientific method.
Perhaps if you could clarify your point relating science to deities that would help.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by JRTjr01, posted 11-03-2013 12:21 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by JRTjr01, posted 11-03-2013 1:52 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 118 of 708 (721584)
03-09-2014 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by JRTjr01
03-09-2014 11:36 PM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
Ringo writes:
Theology is not science.
You seem to be awfully sure of a lot of things for believing that Everything should be doubted.
Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.
Robert A. Heinlein

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by JRTjr01, posted 03-09-2014 11:36 PM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by JRTjr01, posted 03-17-2014 3:38 AM Coyote has not replied

  
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