Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,482 Year: 3,739/9,624 Month: 610/974 Week: 223/276 Day: 63/34 Hour: 2/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature....
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 97 of 708 (717744)
01-31-2014 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
01-30-2014 11:39 AM


Re: Please, let's get on with it!?!?!
Everything should be doubted.
Is this solipsism? Are you saying that we can not know for certain that today is the day after yesterday or other simple facts that are absolutely true? Is it not absolutely true that I have written these words? Are you not absolutely certain that you are alive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 01-30-2014 11:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 01-31-2014 10:46 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 99 of 708 (717763)
01-31-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
01-31-2014 10:46 AM


Re: Please, let's get on with it!?!?!
You couldn't have picked a worse example. I often don't know what day it is.
I chose it because it doesn't matter which day it is specifically. Isn't today always the day after yesterday? Isn't this absolutely true?
Is there no way to form a statement in such a way that it is absolutely true?
No.
So it is solipsism.
abe;
I'm fairly certain that I'm reading them. Who wrote them is less certain.
What does belief have to do with truth?
Edited by ProtoTypical, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 01-31-2014 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 02-01-2014 10:43 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 102 of 708 (717935)
02-03-2014 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
02-01-2014 10:43 AM


Perceiving reality
It's defined as true.
So is everything a tautology? When we say that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom is that a tautology? Is it not an absolute truth that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom?
It's trivially true.
Well its a start at least and shows that something can be absolutely true. From small cornerstones we can realize more profound truths. It seems to me that you are saying that we can not really know anything.
What about mathematical truths? Is F=MA not always true? Or the speed of light in a vacuum?
Perception has everything to do with what we think is true. What we do - i.e. "reality" - is based on what we perceive as true, not on what "is" true.
Are you saying that there is no connection between what we perceive is real and reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 02-01-2014 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 02-03-2014 10:58 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 105 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2014 11:20 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 107 of 708 (718071)
02-04-2014 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
02-03-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Perceiving reality
Always? Until forever is over, how can we know about always?
We can know by inference.
I am nearly convinced that your position is correct although for some reason it seems to me that there must be some aspect to reality that is universal.
I concede that my examples are piss poor. How about these - things evolve or perception is relative to the observer or time is sequential? Sort of mundane I suppose but if something were universally true then I guess that it would likely appear as something obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 02-03-2014 10:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 10:35 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 108 of 708 (718072)
02-04-2014 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Modulous
02-03-2014 11:20 AM


Re: Perceiving reality
Think about an assumption you have to make - that you can know the truth through perception. Are you saying there is no doubt here? That you are not in a Matrix, or just a brain in a jar or what have you?
No, trust me, I have lots of doubt but can we not know anything for sure? Postulating a matrix is the same as invoking a god or unicorns or any other product of the imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2014 11:20 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2014 8:12 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 160 of 708 (726725)
05-11-2014 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
05-11-2014 2:45 PM


Re: Should I doubt that I know what I mean? !?!?!
I do doubt everything - but not necessarily absolutely everything.
What?
I think what you meant to say ( ) was something else. You can't have it both ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 05-11-2014 2:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 05-11-2014 3:16 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 162 of 708 (726729)
05-11-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
05-11-2014 3:16 PM


Re: Should I doubt that I know what I mean? !?!?!
Do you not see any conflict between
I do doubt everything
and
There may be some things that I don't doubt
?
Isn't everything every thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 05-11-2014 3:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 05-11-2014 3:32 PM Dogmafood has not replied
 Message 166 by Larni, posted 05-23-2014 12:06 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 167 of 708 (728111)
05-23-2014 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by ringo
05-23-2014 12:00 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Sure it is. How do you distinguish between a nitrogen moelcule that's touching the plate and a water molecule that's touching the plate and a carrot molecule that's touching th plate?
There is nothing on the plate. Molecules do not touch each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 05-23-2014 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 05-24-2014 11:38 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 169 of 708 (728148)
05-24-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by ringo
05-24-2014 11:38 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Ahhh so really there is only one molecule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 05-24-2014 11:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 05-24-2014 11:54 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 177 of 708 (728693)
06-01-2014 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by ringo
05-23-2014 12:00 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
So give us a non-trivial example.
Elements come from stars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 05-23-2014 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 06-02-2014 11:55 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 180 of 708 (728745)
06-02-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by ringo
06-02-2014 11:55 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
There were elements before there were stars. "Some elements come from stars" is as trivially true as "some dogs are brown".
Maybe I should ask for your definition of an absolute truth. Why should triviality disqualify something?
Is there some H or He in this universe that has not been through a star? Perhaps I over reached though. How about — Carbon comes from stars. Is that trivial?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 06-02-2014 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 06-03-2014 7:33 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 06-03-2014 8:11 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 06-03-2014 12:13 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 06-03-2014 2:59 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 186 of 708 (728871)
06-03-2014 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Straggler
06-03-2014 7:33 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Unless we somehow establish that not a single carbon atom was formed anywhere but in a star I'm not sure 'Carbon comes from stars' can be considered an absolute truth.
Are you saying then that because I can not prove a negative there is no such thing as an absolute truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 06-03-2014 7:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 06-04-2014 1:27 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 187 of 708 (728872)
06-03-2014 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by AZPaul3
06-03-2014 8:11 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Bad example, Proto. Carbon-14 is a cosmogenic nuclide. Not made in stars.
Nitpicker! Ok but it is not made without a star.
If I add the qualifier that 'some' carbon comes from stars is that not absolutely true? Does the qualifier disqualify it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 06-03-2014 8:11 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by AZPaul3, posted 06-04-2014 3:38 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 188 of 708 (728873)
06-03-2014 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
06-03-2014 12:13 PM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
How about this statement?
There is such a thing as reality that exists independent of consciousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 06-03-2014 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 06-04-2014 1:30 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 06-04-2014 11:43 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 194 of 708 (728980)
06-04-2014 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Straggler
06-04-2014 1:30 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
Straggler writes:
PT writes:
There is such a thing as reality that exists independent of consciousness.
We certainly oprate on that basis. We might even say we consider this to be true.
But it might be wrong, its not infallible, so how can it be absolute?
Our perceptions may be wrong but not the reality itself. It is what it is. Being able to know what it is is something different. I might concede that we can not know it but can we not be certain that it must exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 06-04-2014 1:30 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Straggler, posted 06-05-2014 2:44 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024