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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the WORD of God or the WORD of Satan?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 46 of 52 (705596)
08-29-2013 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dawn Bertot
08-29-2013 12:15 AM


I think if you follow the Forum Guidelines (which are neutral with regard to position on any issue) by discussing the topic that you'll have nothing to worry about. Or you could just continue carrying on like you are.
As a participant in this thread I do not plan on taking on a moderator role, but should that become necessary then the process I usually follow is to announce that I am recusing myself from discussion and then begin moderating two days hence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-29-2013 12:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(3)
Message 47 of 52 (705618)
08-29-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dawn Bertot
08-26-2013 9:29 PM


"disbeliever" here.
hi dawn,
this is probably off topic, i'm sure. but... i feel it somewhat necessary to respond.
Dawn Bertot writes:
While am always appreciative for the opportunity to participate here at the EVC, it is nothing less than comical that without even the influence or participation of believers in certain threads, you fellas just cant help talking about the Bible.
this board is, of course, for discussing the entirety of the evolution and creationism debate, and in the broader argument, that certainly includes the bible. it's kind of what we're here for.
believers are, of course, welcome to participate. sadly, they are few and far between. it is hard to have a debate if people aren't willing to participate on both sides, or (in your case) aren't willing to particularly stick to the topic. it is odd that, in a topic about the bible, the "believers" aren't posting much, if anything, about the bible. instead, you're arguing a meta-debate, about the validity of our ability to argue these positions, or our motivations for doing so.
so, i'm going to add some personal context to this. i feel that some of this kind of thing is directed at me, as i have a rather early post in this thread detailing the evolution of ancient mythology in judaism, probably some of the more direct argumentation about who wrote the bible, and the roles of both yahweh (god) and ha-satan (the adversary) in the evolution of the mythology -- pretty obviously "disbelief" under your definitions of what you think the bible is.
i was born and raised an atheist. around 1996, i converted to christianity. fundamentalist, sola scriptura christianity. i did so because i had been listening to bible studies and sermons on a christian radio station that had frequency-creeped over the classical music station i'd been listening to at night. the sermons had been on abraham, and his relationship with yahweh. something about it spoke to me, the way man and god interacted, and i recognized a certain power in the text, regardless of whether any of this actually happened. i now joke that, if i had thought about it more, i should have converted to judaism.
since then, i have never particularly stopped studying the bible in some form or another, sometimes motivated by debates on this very board. but i very quickly soured on fundamentalism in general. i never once found a church i truly felt at home in. none of them seemed to actually honor the words of christ. i heard far too many excuses about why they were selling crap in their lobbies, why they weren't helping the poor, etc. none of them seemed to match well with science i had known about and been fascinated by as a child. it's a bit hard to trust the rest of their message when you know the part about dinosaur bones being put there by the devil is obviously nonsense, having studied paleontology yourself. and most importantly, in none of those churches did i ever once feel the presence of god. they all felt cold, empty, and dead... or sometimes worse. sometimes sinister, manipulative, greedy. the church i went to the longest, i would frequently exit the building to pray. it is easy to see how one could argue that the other facets of the religion were the works of the devil, when the only things you really saw in church were oppressed children force to attend, back-stabbing, manipulation through guilt and ignorance and fear, and people in positions of power obviously lying for monetary gain.
and yet, the bible still fascinates me. i turned away from the churches, and decided i would just study it myself. it seemed more direct than listening to a pastor who was more concerned about what people are doing with their genitals, whether accurate science was being taught in biology classrooms, and whether or not i'd given him 10% of my allowance. i participated on internet discussion boards, such as this one, and listened to the viewpoints of others... but was always left a little wanting. i read books here and there, but it started to click with me when i decided i would just honestly approach it for what it appeared to be, and not let other dictate how i would read the bible. perhaps that's heterdox, or my sola scriptura experience with religion, but mostly it was my utter disillusionment with the power structure of organized religion.
in any case, for me that process of honestly approaching the text began with learning about the history, language, and culture that produced the bible. it included college classes in the old testament and hebrew, and quite a few books. and it produced new and immensely useful ways of analyzing and dissecting the text itself, in places that i'd just kind of gone glassy-eyed before. though the power of the writing still speaks to me very strongly, with the knowledge i've gained along the way, it is the absolutely inescapable conclusion that this is a predominantly human text. perhaps there is a spark of the divine in it, in the way it claims there is a spark of the divine in us, but it is in many ways more powerful and more meaningful to me as a collection human works of literature. maybe i never really "believed" in it the way that the literalists do (it's hard to start that when you know certain parts have to be wrong), but i promise you that i believe in it in a way that you can't even begin to appreciate until you have studied it honestly.
Never the Koran, the Book of Mormon or anyother religious document, just the Bible
the qu'ran does not really impact my life or my culture in any perceivable way at the moment. though that is quickly changing. it's on my reading list. i have a passing familiarity with the book of mormon; i dated a (not-exactly from utah) mormon, have read portions of the book, and talk to the missionaries whenever they drop by. it is much more obviously a human work, and without any of that significance i find in the bible.
Without even being aware of it the Lord has taken a website or means of communicating, that is meant to disapprove and discredit the Bible and turned it into a vehicle for his truth and the spread of his truth
interestingly, my journey through faith has been a long and troubled one. the more i have studied the bible, the harder it has been to maintain any semblance of faith, particularly the christian aspects of it which basically no longer make any kind of sense in relation my knowledge of historical (and biblical) judaism. far from using criticism of religion as a tool for evangelism, i've found that actual study of the bible has actively driven me away from faith.
Thats the reason you dont ever discuss in detail other religious documents because you know instinctively they are not reliable, dependable and truthful
and the more you study the bible, the more you find it's basically the same exact thing.
The Bible on the other hand gives you much trouble
that's one way to put it, i suppose.
Edited by arachnophilia, : grammars, spellings

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2013 9:29 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-04-2013 4:51 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 48 of 52 (705627)
08-30-2013 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dawn Bertot
08-26-2013 9:29 PM


A Miracle!
Without even being aware of it the Lord has taken a website or means of communicating, that is meant to disapprove and discredit the Bible and turned it into a vehicle for his truth and the spread of his truth
1. And lo, it came to pass that people of the forums that are called EvC did talk about the Bible, 2. Yea, even the book that maketh men creationists, and putteth the C in EvC. 3. And His prophet Bertot did say 4. Truly, God hath wrought a miracle in my sight, for this is exactly the sort of thing that wouldn't happen without divine intervention.
5. But the children of the forums did murmur among themselves, saying 6. Meh, it's not much of a miracle, is it? 7. I mean, remember the good old days when it was a plague of frogs here, a parting of the sea there? 8. And walking on water, now that was classy.
9. And they did mock the prophet Bertot, saying, 10. What a tosser is the prophet Bertot, even he that is called Dawn, for he talketh a lot of cock.
11. And there was much rejoicing in the land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2013 9:29 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-04-2013 4:56 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 49 of 52 (705975)
09-04-2013 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by arachnophilia
08-29-2013 8:30 PM


Re: "disbeliever" here.
interestingly, my journey through faith has been a long and troubled one. the more i have studied the bible, the harder it has been to maintain any semblance of faith, particularly the christian aspects of it which basically no longer make any kind of sense in relation my knowledge of historical (and biblical) judaism. far from using criticism of religion as a tool for evangelism, i've found that actual study of the bible has actively driven me away from faith.
I must admit that these kinds of testimonials while few and far between, are refreshing
I gather from your post and to stay on topic that you are suggesting that I should reject the Bible for some reason and God as its author
Or are you suggesting that I should reject it for personal and emotional reasons
Again I am not sure of your reasons or purposes here
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by arachnophilia, posted 08-29-2013 8:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by arachnophilia, posted 09-05-2013 6:17 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 50 of 52 (705976)
09-04-2013 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dr Adequate
08-30-2013 1:44 AM


Re: A Miracle!
1. And lo, it came to pass that people of the forums that are called EvC did talk about the Bible, 2. Yea, even the book that maketh men creationists, and putteth the C in EvC. 3. And His prophet Bertot did say 4. Truly, God hath wrought a miracle in my sight, for this is exactly the sort of thing that wouldn't happen without divine intervention.
5. But the children of the forums did murmur among themselves, saying 6. Meh, it's not much of a miracle, is it? 7. I mean, remember the good old days when it was a plague of frogs here, a parting of the sea there? 8. And walking on water, now that was classy.
9. And they did mock the prophet Bertot, saying, 10. What a tosser is the prophet Bertot, even he that is called Dawn, for he talketh a lot of cock.
11. And there was much rejoicing in the land.
Without even trying Dr Inadequate has demonstrated my point without fault. here is a man that hates even the idea of God, the Bible as his word and religion in general
Yet he spends great deals of time inventing ways to convince himself that said myth is just that, myth
Actually what you are seeing is a man in Dr Inadequate, crying for help. He just doesnt know how to reject his shortcomings to get at it
You keep debunking those myths you disbelief so strongly, Dr A though and maybe you will finally convince someone you arent crying for help. You really should spend some time attacking those alien believing people
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-30-2013 1:44 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 09-05-2013 9:31 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 51 of 52 (706024)
09-05-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dawn Bertot
09-04-2013 4:56 PM


Re: A Miracle!
Hi Dawn,
You now have 10 messages in this thread with not a single one touching on the topic. This is from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
How many times do you think a person should be permitted to violate the Forum Guidelines in any given thread before a moderator should intervene?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-04-2013 4:56 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 52 of 52 (706073)
09-05-2013 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dawn Bertot
09-04-2013 4:51 PM


Re: "disbeliever" here.
hi dawn,
Dawn Bertot writes:
I must admit that these kinds of testimonials while few and far between, are refreshing
like i said, i felt like some context was needed. many of us here interested in the bible because we are present (or former) christians or jews. and because even with a totally atheistic point of view regarding the text and its origin, it still speaks very strongly to us or is important in other ways. it's probably a mistake to read, as you seem to, as meaning that the bible is secretly evangelizing to us. for some, such as myself, it has had just the opposite effect. i would likely still count myself among the ranks of the evangelicals, charismatics, and fundamentalists if it weren't for the bible.
I gather from your post and to stay on topic that you are suggesting that I should reject the Bible for some reason and God as its author
i am not actually suggesting that you do anything. i was just providing some information about the history of my personal religious experience, and a bit about why i find the bible so fascinating and relevant. if my post is making any suggestion about what i think you should do, it's only that i think you should continue to study the bible, and do so even more earnestly, and harder than you have before. regardless of your beliefs, it is a culturally important and meaningful library of texts.
Again I am not sure of your reasons or purposes here
this is why i felt it might be off-topic. i'm not making any particular argument, here. just sharing some (anecdotal) personal experience, and explaining a bit about my motivations for being interested in the text, and yet arguing against the standard fundamentalist rhetoric of godly authorship.
perhaps a more on-topic response is warranted, with specific (and academic) arguments about why it is so hard to think of the bible as anything other than a human set of texts, when you have studied it honestly. but that's really a topic that encompasses this entire sub-forum, and several others. and there have been multiple posts about it in the past.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-04-2013 4:51 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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