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Author Topic:   Are Atheists Mentally Ill
Rahvin
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Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 7 of 117 (705138)
08-23-2013 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
08-23-2013 12:41 PM


Re: Meh
If everything in the blog was valid, I think it may actually point towards some sort of objective evidence for "believing" over "not-believing."
No, it wouldn't. It's just an appeal to consequence - the consequences of a given position, including its desirability, or the effects of holding it, are irrelevant as to whether or not that position is factually accurate.
You'd have objective evidence that belief carries benefits, but that still would not be evidence that the claims of that belief are actually accurate.
Believing one's spouse is not cheating on you has tangible, real benefits - the marriage will be better. But that belief can still be wrong. The benefits don't have anything to do with whether your spouse is actually cheating, they're simply a consequence of the belief that he/she is not. Ignorance can very well be bliss. I know specifically of at least one person who contracted HIV this way.
When considering how an observation affects a hypothesis, you cannot consider that hypothesis in a vacuum. Belief in God might well reduce the incidence of depression...but that not only fits with the hypothesis that God is real - it also fits with the hypothesis that positive beliefs, even if delusional, have an effect on mental state. Just for starters. The observation needs to adjust the relative probability that a given hypothesis is correct; if the observation equally supports a large number of other hypotheses, then the observation is not really evidence of much of anything. In this case, it would be evidence that positive beliefs positively affect mental state, and the relative probability of the root cause being the accuracy of those beliefs vs the root cause being simply that positive beliefs encourage positive moods would be unchanged.
When you examine further and see that believers still suffer from depression, that bad things happen regardless of faith in God, that prayers offer no statistical deviation from "normal" reality, and so on, those observations do strongly affect the relative likelihood of God (at least as typically imagined: as an occasionally-intervening intelligent agent working through unknown methods to reward belief in its existence or respond to pleas for assistance with no limit on ability) existing as compared to hypotheses where no gods (again, as typically imagined) exist.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 08-23-2013 12:41 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 08-23-2013 2:04 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 10 by Stile, posted 08-23-2013 2:12 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 9 of 117 (705142)
08-23-2013 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Stile
08-23-2013 2:04 PM


Re: The Science Lesson
Even if the prayers of believers were always answered... this would not be objective evidence "for God."
It would be objective evidence that prayers from believers are answered.
Maybe Satan actually answers the prayers... or maybe fairies.
Or, maybe there still isn't any external being at all and prayers are answered as some sort of inherent property of the universe we have yet to understand correctly.
Or maybe the prayers are for things that have a high likelihood of happening anyway. If I pray for rain when there are dark clouds overhead, no intelligent mysterious agency is required to answer my prayer - it's been answered before it was even uttered.
Perhaps more poignantly: when someone prays for a positive outcome from a surgery with a 90% success rate, and indeed the surgery passes with no complications and full success...no devil, no fairies, and no gods were required for that prayer to be answered. The doctor did it, and the prayer was irrelevant.
I remember as a child praying for such simply absurdities as finding the correct Lego brick as I searched through the dumped-out contents of my several storage bins. It never occurred to my 9-year-old self that there was a high likelihood that I would find it anyway, or that since I was going to continue to search until I found it, I had guaranteed a favorable "answer" to my prayer regardless.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 08-23-2013 2:04 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 12 of 117 (705145)
08-23-2013 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Stile
08-23-2013 2:12 PM


Re: Right as Rain
Actually, I re-read this statement.
And, technically, I'm right.
You're assuming that being "factually accurate" about the belief was an intended goal when that is not necessarily derived from my statement.
My statement could have been implying that the data was objective evidence for "believing" over "not-believing" in the pursuit of goals such as "being happier" or "having more children" or other things that were specifically tested for. This would be regardless of the fact of the belief being accurate or not.
If you want to be happier, or have more children... this would be objective evidence that you should be a believer.
This assumes a few strange things:
-the claims made in the blog are valid (this I highly doubt)
-"being a believer" is a simple choice (I'm not sure that's always possible...)
We're not in disagreement.
But the article is more than strongly implying that "positive results from belief indicate belief is accurate." That's the basis for my argument, since we're speaking in the context of the article.
Furthermore, not all values are equivalent, the reason you used the word "if." For example, I more strongly value truth than happiness or fertility. It's more important to me that I work to ensure that my beliefs accurately reflect reality, wherever that leads, than happiness or more kids or many, many other things. If x is true, then I want to believe that x is true. If ix is not true, then I want to not believe that x is true. That's at nearly the top of my value hierarchy. From a utilitarian standpoint, I would gain less net benefit by being a believer than I do by remaining an atheist - until and unless I'm convinced that God(s) actually do exist. And any actual benefits of belief are irrelevant to that.
Hell, we already knew that there were massive benefits to being a believer...at least in America. The social benefits of membership in a large, recognized religion are not inconsequential, and the negative repercussions of coming out as not being a member of such (whether atheist or simply a smaller or less mainstream faith - Scientology or Mormonism come to mind, depending again on location) can be rather harsh. Obviously it would be easier to find a mate, to find social acceptance, to be happy, and so on, simply from the social effects of belief.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Stile, posted 08-23-2013 2:12 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Stile, posted 08-23-2013 2:38 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 37 of 117 (705354)
08-26-2013 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:33 AM


Re: Short Summary
What purpose is there to life besides being happy?
Plenty.
Not all people share the same value hierarchy. "Happiness" is not always at the top - other people seek value fulfillment in the acquisition of knowledge, or the raising of children, or any number of other values that do not necessarily maximize "happiness." In some cases the fulfillment of those values may make a person "happy," but not always, and the definition of "happy" is in many cases fuzzy.
If believing in a god makes me happier, shouldn't I believe in a god regardless of whether I think that god actually exists?
Hell, at least 70% of the reason I believe in a god is because of how it makes me feel; and since I'm not dropping bombs on folks based on my beliefs, there's really no reason not to go the happy route.
And you've given an example I can counter: I value knowledge and truth over happiness. I'd rather believe what it verifiably true than what makes me happy; I'd rather know how much is actually in my bank account than believe that I have infinite money. If God exists, I'd rather believe in God than not; if God does not exist, I'd rather believe that God does not exist. This is all independent of whether each belief would make me happier.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 1:04 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 52 by nwr, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 39 of 117 (705359)
08-26-2013 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
08-26-2013 1:04 PM


Re: Short Summary
We all seek happiness. The paths we take may differ. But no one desires misery.
False dilemma - not seeking happiness is not the same as desiring misery.
In many, many cases, the fulfillment of a value causes extreme discomfort and sometimes even misery. Civil rights activists are not generally seeking "happiness" - they're seeking social justice. In many cases they know that they'll be persecuted, possibly violently, can spend years or decades in prison, or even face assassination. Obviously they could have easily chosen a much better path to "happiness."
But they make those choices anyway. Because "happiness" is not always the highest value in the hierarchy.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 1:04 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:28 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 41 of 117 (705361)
08-26-2013 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Theodoric
08-26-2013 1:26 PM


Re: Short Summary
Wow. I guess I am stunned that you actual presented Pascal's Wager as your reason to believe in a god.
Doesn't even strike me as Pascal's Wager - it's just an argument from consequence that he went ahead and embraced.
But if his highest value really is happiness, then his reasoning is consistent - he doesn't necessarily value logical consistency in his beliefs, he just goes with whatever makes him happier.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2013 1:26 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2013 5:30 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 55 of 117 (705377)
08-26-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by nwr
08-26-2013 2:33 PM


Re: Short Summary
I'm not sure I understand this.
For me, seeking knowledge and truth are what make me happy.
And yet you might make life choices that are unarguably less "happy" in the pursuit of fulfilling that ultimate goal.
The fuzzy definition of "happiness" is part of what I'm trying to point out. In one sense a person seeking "happiness" is a hedonist trying to maximize pleasure and enjoyment in life. In another sense "happiness" can be the contentment of having fulfilled a value, even though the process was not enjoyable.
But see my other earlier response - there are choices some people make in life that are virtually guaranteed to result in misery and even death for the individual, yet they choose those paths over happier options because there is something else they value more than their own happiness.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by nwr, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nwr, posted 08-26-2013 4:16 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 56 of 117 (705378)
08-26-2013 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:28 PM


Re: Short Summary
What floats the boat is what makes you happy.
You're using a definition of "happy" that encompasses literally everything.
If prison, torture, and death are encompassed in your definition of "happy," then I contend that your usage makes the word utterly meaningless.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:28 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 58 of 117 (705381)
08-26-2013 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
08-26-2013 2:43 PM


Re: Short Summary
Our lives can, in fact, have a purpose.
And the short resolution to that dichotomy is that nature doesn't care - but we do.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-26-2013 2:43 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 3:28 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 68 of 117 (705392)
08-26-2013 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by nwr
08-26-2013 4:16 PM


Re: Short Summary
I distinguish "happiness" from "pleasure". I see hedonism as relevant to pleasure, rather than to happiness.
Again, the fuzziness of the definition is part of what I was trying to address.
When those who wrote the US Declaration of independence referred to "the pursuit of happiness", I have a hard time believing that they meant "the pursuit of pleasure."
Agreed. Yet in the ongoing discussion with Jon, "happiness" has been used in such a way that it can mean any emotional state so long as values are being satisfied, whatever those values might be. In this way a person would be described as "happy" if they were in prison after protesting human rights abuses - I think that if you can say that a person pursues "happiness" by going to prison, the term "happiness" has lost all meaning.
The relevant fact is that the "pursuit of happiness" is not, as Jon claimed, the ultimate purpose of life. Yes, we all seek to fulfill our values, but "happiness" is just one of those values, and its place in the hierarchy with other values is variable by individual. This means that a person might sacrifice their happiness in order to achieve a goal they consider more important - for example, some people spend more time at work instead of trying to be happy; other people might protest civil injustice and wind up in prison, tortured, or killed instead of just basing their decisions on what would make them the most "happy."
I see a strong difference there. If all I cared about was being happy, I'd make significantly different life choices than those I actually do make. I'd rather be depressed and have a very accurate internal model of how the world is and works, than be happy but wrong. Yes, happiness is one of my values, and I do seek to have that value fulfilled, but I have other values that I consider more important. And while you can try to describe the fulfillment of values itself as "happiness," as Jon is doing in effect, I think that such a usage contradicts the more common usages of the term, as this would mean that a miserable person could be "happy," which most would consider to be a contradiction.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by nwr, posted 08-26-2013 4:16 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
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