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Author Topic:   Are Atheists Mentally Ill
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 16 of 117 (705153)
08-23-2013 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by NoNukes
08-23-2013 3:27 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
But the panel's examination of studies showing the effect of church attendance on health reached an altogether different conclusion. As Dr. Powell, who is continuing to research this issue, puts it: "After seeing the data, I think I should go to church."
Well, apart from anything else, and there is so much else ...
... where did they decide the difference between causation and correlation? I'm sure that there is a statistical correlation between physical health and going to church. And between physical health and going bowling. And between physical health and visiting a prostitute. There's obviously going to be a statistical correlation between being physically able and participating in any leisure activity that requires one to get out of one's chair.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2013 3:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 117 (705166)
08-23-2013 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
08-23-2013 3:42 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
There's obviously going to be a statistical correlation between being physically able and participating in any leisure activity that requires one to get out of one's chair.
That is true. But to be completely fair, the article does acknowledge that people who attend church services regularly exclude people who are sick and shut-in. The article also acknowledges that there is no gain from watching religious services on TV.
ABE:
The article also acknowledges a frustration mortality effect that might occur when prayer and fasting do not produce the expected results. I have seen this effect first-hand.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 18 of 117 (705168)
08-23-2013 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
08-23-2013 3:00 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Just trying to keep the issues straight:
Is the claim correct that believers are healthier than atheists?
I have a lot of trouble believing this one just on a demographic basis. Believers as a group are less wealthy than atheists and are more likely to belong to the lower socio-economic classes. Both factors are correlated with poorer health.
I agree with your reasoning there, but "Believers as a group are less wealthy than atheists" - where does this assertion come from? Is this assertion any more credible than anything the pro-religion links say?
It is well known that participation within a social group is correlated with better health and mental well-being, but atheists have social groups, too. EvC Forum is one.
(the part I bolded) - truer words were never written!!
Even if the claim were true, is it evidence for God?
Just the "healthier" part, probably not. All the contents of that link plus the next three you listed? Could be.
hard-wired for faith
We knew this already.
A paragraph from that link;
quote:
The researchers said their findings supported the idea that the brain had evolved to be sensitive to any form of belief that improved the chances of survival, which could explain why a belief in God and the supernatural became so widespread in human evolutionary history.
"ANY FORM OF BELIEF" I'm afraid the scientific community is trying to exclude themselves from the same reluctance that religious people have to alter their worldview, and I don't think it's very honest.
I've been noticing several threads here where religious posters like GDR or Ossat honestly state that they have a faith in something, and the evolutionist/atheist posters, while they may not directly say it, they strongly imply "okay, you have faith, whereas I have facts and evidence." Everyone has a worldview that's acquired at an earlier age than in-depth scientific studies. Which means that facts and evidence didn't necessarily lead to their atheism, but that atheism led them to try to reinforce their beliefs with science. It's a human trait that atheists do just the same as religious people.
But the following snip from the "nicer" link probably sums it all up the best;
quote:
Yet, despite what I'm writing here, I'm not really claiming that people of faith are better people than non-believers.
Many of my friends have no faith and would outdo me on measures used in these surveys.
In the church, just like any area of life, it's a mixed bag of the good, the not so good and the, well, nutty.
But this research is in stark contrast to claims by prominent authors such as Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. After reading their works, you'd swear that religion makes you immediately abandon rationality to become an inward-looking extremist. What Putnam's book does at the very least is to bring a bit of balance into the conversation.
Balance is needed, as atheists try to elevate their worldview as automatically more credible and worthy of establishment than religious worldviews.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 08-23-2013 3:00 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-23-2013 8:46 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-24-2013 8:39 AM marc9000 has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 19 of 117 (705169)
08-23-2013 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by marc9000
08-23-2013 8:11 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Oh look, marc wants this thread to be about his usual ramblings. What a surprise. And this has rendered him incapable of understanding simple English words, who'd have thought it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by marc9000, posted 08-23-2013 8:11 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 20 of 117 (705176)
08-23-2013 10:16 PM


Some things
Not everyone who goes to church and/or professes faith actually believes. According to many Christians here, most professing Christians aren't real Christians at all--but they still gain access to one of the biggest old-boy networks ever.
Hell, I went to church nearly every Sunday my junior year of high school in an attempt to get laid. I guess that attendance would have been a plot point in someone's "believer's profit" proof of God...
Yes.
Whither pointeth the causality arrow? Perhaps feeling healthy, wealthy and socially embraced manures belief in a benevolent deity: blessed are the smug, for they shall inherit the magic beans of Prosperity Christianity.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 21 of 117 (705177)
08-23-2013 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by NoNukes
08-23-2013 3:27 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
One problem I have with link church attendance with 'better health', when people get sicker, they don't go to church anymore, because they don't feel well.
That would 'filter them out' of the people who go to church.

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 22 of 117 (705180)
08-24-2013 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by NoNukes
08-23-2013 3:27 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
NoNukes writes:
EvC is a social group for atheists?
I wouldn't call it a social group *for* atheists. Although I had no idea it would turn out this way, it seems that EvC is a social group where atheists feel very comfortable. I myself am neither an atheist, nor an agnostic, nor a member of or adherent to any organized religion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2013 3:27 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 23 of 117 (705181)
08-24-2013 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by marc9000
08-23-2013 8:11 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
marc9000 writes:
I agree with your reasoning there, but "Believers as a group are less wealthy than atheists" - where does this assertion come from? Is this assertion any more credible than anything the pro-religion links say?
Why are you questioning something that can merely be Googled? It is well known that religiosity declines with increasing income and education, and atheists are underrepresented in scores of negative categories, such as murderers, robbers, rapists, drug addicts and divorcees.
Some people have a worldview that the Earth is flat or that the Sun revolves around the Earth. "Worldview" is just a synonym for wishful thinking and has nothing to do with facts, science or reality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by marc9000, posted 08-23-2013 8:11 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by marc9000, posted 08-24-2013 8:08 PM Percy has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 24 of 117 (705218)
08-24-2013 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-24-2013 8:39 AM


Re: Listing the Issues
Why are you questioning something that can merely be Googled?
I was looking for *evidence*. At your request, I googled "atheists make more money", and somewhat expected to see at least one link on the first first few pages, if not more than one, to reputable statistical sources that proved your claim. Not there, mostly just links to atheist sites.
It is well known that religiosity declines with increasing income and education,
It is also well known that "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth", but if that is stated within miles of anything scientific, evidence is demanded. Telling the scientists to google it doesn't seem to work too well.
The main reason I'm skeptical of that claim is because so many atheists are also liberals, and it doesn't make sense that people who work hard, take risks, and succeed with money would favor a political party that wants to take away the fruits of their labors and redistribute it to others. And yes, I have evidence that atheists tend to be liberal;
quote:
The religiously unaffiliated are heavily Democratic in their partisanship and liberal in their political ideology. More than six-in-ten describe themselves as Democrats or say they lean toward the Democratic Party (compared with 48% of all registered voters). And there are roughly twice as many self-described liberals (38%) as conservatives (20%) among the religiously unaffiliated. Among voters overall, this balance is reversed.
Nones on the Rise | Pew Research Center
There's always the possibility that atheists make more money than religious people in general, but it doesn't always take high IQ, skills and risk-taking to make money. Many in the Hollywood crowd do quite well, but they just do it with their natural good looks, nothing they themselves had a hand in determining. The guy who advertises for Allstate insurance makes a nice living with only his deep, studly voice. It would make more sense that that type of money maker could favor liberalism, they're largely out of touch with the realities of risks, production, and hard work.
So if you can't, or won't, provide me with evidence for your claim that atheists are such good capitalists, I guess we'll just have to table that part of this discussion.
and atheists are underrepresented in scores of negative categories, such as murderers, robbers, rapists, drug addicts and divorcees.
Without evidence, I have to call that claim subjective as well. There is all sorts of flexibility in how people can be labeled concerning religion, and who is doing the labeling. If atheists are so skilled at avoiding negative categories, it seems that sometime, somewhere, they would have been able to put together a really nice free, wealthy, blissful society. They haven't.
Some people have a worldview that the Earth is flat or that the Sun revolves around the Earth. "Worldview" is just a synonym for wishful thinking and has nothing to do with facts, science or reality.
"Worldview" is actually a very relevant, useful term, one that the scientific community probably wishes didn't exist. It;
quote:
simply refers to the framework of ideas and beliefs through which an individual, group or culture interprets the world and interacts with it as a coherent description of the world as one objective reality
Worldview - Wikipedia
The word serves to bring the scientific community down off its plateau of superiority, and shows all the scientific theories and faiths to be no more relevant than religious beliefs. Everyone has a worldview, and I think it's obvious that a person develops his/her first, and usually final, worldview at a fairly young age, probably age 12 to 14. All these implications that atheists only deal in facts and evidence isn't honest. They do the same thing religious people do, they start with a conclusion, then search for evidence to back it up.
From your earlier message;
I myself am neither an atheist, nor an agnostic, nor a member of or adherent to any organized religion.
So you're completely neutral? You have no worldview? If that's your claim, it's really hard to have a discussion with you. You stated above that atheists are under-represented in negative categories - how can any statistics be gathered if we have an unknown, and unknowable amount of "neutrals" like yourself? I think you're a "naturalist", one who sides 99% of the time with anti-religion. Isn't that a fair assessment?
I'd like this thread to take a closer look at "the impact of religious practice on social stability", from the Heritage Foundation link found within this threads topic link, but I'll bow out now if this thread was only started to be an atheist love-fest. I'll use the upcoming rage and forum rule breaking from Dr. A and others, with no administrative discipline, as my gauge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-24-2013 8:39 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 08-25-2013 8:36 AM marc9000 has replied
 Message 28 by bluegenes, posted 08-25-2013 10:05 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 47 by Larni, posted 08-26-2013 2:18 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 25 of 117 (705240)
08-25-2013 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by marc9000
08-24-2013 8:08 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Hi Marc,
It *is* well known that religiosity declines with increasing income and education, and I *am* surprised that you didn't know that. I thought you were pretending ignorance so that I would go off and waste my time finding evidence for you.
I'm not surprised you didn't find the evidence you sought with the search terms "atheists make more money". Try "religiosity vs income", which works better because it uses words I actually said.
Concerning your political claims, this thread isn't about conservatives versus liberals, but I'll address this one thing:
And yes, I have evidence that atheists tend to be liberal;
Why would anyone question this? It's as well known as religiosity decreasing with increasing income and education.
Concerning worldview, like many of the religious you seem to believe that the words used are more important than the evidence behind them. To draw your attention back to the examples you ignored (even though you quoted them), your worldview has just as much evidence as a flat Earth worldview or an Earth-at-the-center worldview.
You asked about my own worldview. I believe evidence leads best toward what is true about the world and universe.
Concerning the topic I can only repeat that the greater wealth and education of those with the least religiosity argues against the premise of this thread.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by marc9000, posted 08-24-2013 8:08 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by marc9000, posted 08-25-2013 8:31 PM Percy has replied
 Message 32 by caffeine, posted 08-26-2013 8:03 AM Percy has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 26 of 117 (705286)
08-25-2013 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Percy
08-25-2013 8:36 AM


Re: Listing the Issues
It *is* well known that religiosity declines with increasing income and education, and I *am* surprised that you didn't know that.
I live in the outskirts of Cincinnati, Ohio. Lots of ghettos on both sides of the river, FILLED with people with no religious background, no education, and very little income. I see the same things on the news from around New York, Chicago, LA, Atlanta, etc. I'm a blue collar worker, and am often surrounded by LOTS of people with no religious background, no education, and very little income. I sometimes tend to let my own actual experiences lead me to conclusions, or at least use them to balance the proclamations I see from special interests, like the scientific community, or the news media.
I thought you were pretending ignorance so that I would go off and waste my time finding evidence for you.
I'm not surprised you didn't find the evidence you sought with the search terms "atheists make more money". Try "religiosity vs income", which works better because it uses words I actually said.
In doing that, I found this NY Times link (descended from another one) on the first page, which contained the following paragraph;
quote:
Pew found that there is a strong relationship between a country’s religiosity and its economic status. The poorer a country, the more religion remains central to the lives of individuals, while secular perspectives are more common in richer nations.
The United States is the most notable exception. Other exceptions are oil-rich, mostly Muslim nations like Kuwait.
And another link, from your search suggestion, with a paragraph from it;
quote:
Gallup surveyed people in more than 100 countries in 2009 and found that religiosity was highly correlated to poverty. Richer countries in general are less religious. But that doesn’t hold true for the United States.
Or Israel, or Italy, or Greece, or Ireland for that matter, according to that chart. It only makes sense that what may be true for the entire world isn’t necessarily true for some countries, including the United States. Don’t you think it would be important to make that distinction between the two, since the link of this thread's topic strongly indicates that it concerns the United States?
Concerning your political claims, this thread isn't about conservatives versus liberals,
I think it partly is, because if the claim is made that atheists are more educated and successful than religious people, it's synonymous with a claim that liberalism, or the Democrat party, possesses more worthy, educated influence.
but I'll address this one thing:
marc9000 writes:
And yes, I have evidence that atheists tend to be liberal;
Why would anyone question this? It's as well known as religiosity decreasing with increasing income and education.
Because as I said, it doesn't make sense that those who earn more would generally politically favor the politics that would redistribute (take away from them) more of what they earn.
Concerning worldview, like many of the religious you seem to believe that the words used are more important than the evidence behind them. To draw your attention back to the examples you ignored (even though you quoted them), your worldview has just as much evidence as a flat Earth worldview or an Earth-at-the-center worldview.
As does the atheist worldview. It has nothing for godless origins of life. It only has desperate wishes that it does, and the various hypothesis and experiments it performs in that regard are not evidence. When they snowball, branch out etc, they can start morphing into claims of being evidence, but they still aren't in reality. I think you’re worse with the word "evidence" than I am with the word "worldview".
Concerning the topic I can only repeat that the greater wealth and education of those with the least religiosity argues against the premise of this thread.
Here are a couple of paragraphs from the link that is this thread's topic;
quote:
In 2004, scholars at UCLA revealed that college students involved in religious activities are likely to have better mental health. In 2006, population researchers at the University of Texas discovered that the more often you go to church, the longer you live. In the same year researchers at Duke University in America discovered that religious people have stronger immune systems than the irreligious. They also established that churchgoers have lower blood pressure.
Meanwhile in 2009 a team of Harvard psychologists discovered that believers who checked into hospital with broken hips reported less depression, had shorter hospital stays, and could hobble further when they left hospital — as compared to their similarly crippled but heathen fellow-sufferers.
"UCLA, University of Texas, Duke University in America, Harvard....."— I had the idea that this thread was about religiosity in the United States, not worldwide.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 08-25-2013 8:36 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 27 of 117 (705288)
08-25-2013 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by marc9000
08-25-2013 8:31 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
I live in the outskirts of Cincinnati, Ohio. Lots of ghettos on both sides of the river, FILLED with people with no religious background, no education, and very little income.
I think your method of gathering information on religious background is highly flawed. I'm very familiar with the poor areas of Atlanta, and my experience is that religious affiliation is very high in those areas of town. Your impression does not appear to be based on anything factual. I have no idea how you would form that opinions about the religious backgrounds of people in ghettos other than by making naked, uninformed assumptions.
Yes, they tend to be poor, and tend to have lower education. But they also tend to be black, a group which in the US has a far higher propensity for religious affiliation than do whites, with black women having the highest propensity.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by marc9000, posted 08-25-2013 8:31 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 6:44 PM NoNukes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(2)
Message 28 of 117 (705292)
08-25-2013 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by marc9000
08-24-2013 8:08 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
marc9000 writes:
I'd like this thread to take a closer look at "the impact of religious practice on social stability", from the Heritage Foundation link found within this threads topic link,....
Heritage Foundation on religion and social stability.
There's considerable variation in religiosity around the world, marc, and also considerable regional variation in your own country.
I was interested to read this on the health benefits of religiosity. Interested, because I happen to know that there's a general negative correlation between high religiosity and longevity around the world, and also within the United States.
quote:
Religion and Physical Health
Greater longevity is consistently and significantly related to higher levels of religious practice and involvement, regardless of the sex, race, education, or health history of those studied. For example, those who are religiously involved live an average of seven years longer than those who are not. This gap is as great as that between non-smokers and those who smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. Predicting the life spans of 20-year-olds who are religiously involved compared with those who are not yields differences in life span as great as those between women and men and between whites and blacks. Among African-Americans, the longevity benefit is still greater. The average life span of religious blacks is 14 years longer than that of their nonreligious peers.
Studies on the effects of religious practice on annual death rates of various populations found that, after controlling for variables such as race, death rates for an age cohort (e.g., men age 59 or women age 71) were reduced by 28 percent to 46 percent (e.g., from 100 deaths per year to 72 deaths to 54 deaths) for that age group.
An earlier review of 250 epidemiological health research studies found a reduced risk of colitis, different types of cancer, and untimely death among people with higher levels of religious commitment. Conversely, at any age, those who did not attend religious services had higher risks of dying from cirrhosis of the liver, emphysema, arteriosclerosis, and other cardiovascular diseases and were more likely to commit suicide, according to an even earlier review by faculty of the John Hopkins University School of Public Health. The most significant pathway by which religious practice delivers these longevity benefits is a lifestyle that reduces the risk of mortality from infectious diseases and diabetes by encouraging a support network among family and friends that helps to maintain a pattern of regimented care.
Not only a person's own religious practice, but also parents' religious practice affects personal health. Adolescents whose mothers attended religious services at least weekly displayed better health, greater problem-solving skills, and higher overall satisfaction with their lives, regardless of race, gender, income, or family structure, according to a study of public school children in Baltimore.
So, as the author is talking about research in the U.S., let's do some research of our own.
States by religiosity
States by life expectancy
Straight away, we can see that Mississippi leads America in religiosity, but comes last in life expectancy. Utah is an exception, coming 10th in life expectancy, but the other nine on the "high religiosity" list all score very low in life expectancy.
In the low religiosity list, D.C. is the exception, at number 43 in life expectancy. Of the other 11, only Nevada and Alaska are below average, and 5 of the infidel states are in the top ten for longevity.
None of which means that religious practise never confers health benefits on the devout. There are several ways in which it can, but religious people themselves often seem to misunderstand the research which can show this.
The Telegraph article linked to in the O.P. makes a number of mistakes, but I'll just mention one for now. He talks about atheism, implying that any advantages gained from religious practise are due to theism. But they're not. Research in the east shows that non-theistic religions like Buddhism have exactly the same effects, and that what is actually believed by the believers doesn't matter. Secular groups of certain types that meet regularly can also confer the benefits on their members that the article gets so excited about.
Edited by bluegenes, : missing word added

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by marc9000, posted 08-24-2013 8:08 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 7:36 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 117 (705302)
08-26-2013 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
08-23-2013 12:34 PM


Re: Short Summary
"The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."
What purpose is there to life besides being happy?
If believing in a god makes me happier, shouldn't I believe in a god regardless of whether I think that god actually exists?
Hell, at least 70% of the reason I believe in a god is because of how it makes me feel; and since I'm not dropping bombs on folks based on my beliefs, there's really no reason not to go the happy route.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 08-23-2013 12:34 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 117 (705303)
08-26-2013 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Adequate
08-23-2013 12:25 PM


We are naturally superstitious critters prone to believing most anything we can manage to invent.
Forcing off this nature can only have a unbalancing effect on our simplistic minds.
Life is better with a level scale.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-23-2013 12:25 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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