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Author Topic:   Age of mankind, dating, and the flood
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 224 (705249)
08-25-2013 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by kofh2u
08-25-2013 5:48 AM


Re: ...changing minds...
If you restrict yourself to Euclidean Geometry, a proof of congruence between two different triangles becomes possible.

You may have a point, but you did not use a great example. You can prove that triangles are congruent in non-Euclidean geometries as well.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by kofh2u, posted 08-25-2013 5:48 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by kofh2u, posted 08-25-2013 3:16 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 53 of 224 (705625)
08-30-2013 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Ossat
08-29-2013 9:59 PM


Re: ...changing minds...
This would have affected the Earth in a way that present events cannot be extrapolated to the past, and that includes the rate of c-14 to c-12, which would have been so minimal that radiocarbon dates for pre-flood samples show infinite or tents of thousand year old dates

This is simply ad hoc assert and denial. Without a shred of evidence for the flood, you simply assert a flood and different atmospheric conditions because not doing so means admitting you are wrong. I suppose I might do the same if I thought my salvation hung in the balance. And if I did not need to understand science just to make a living.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Ossat, posted 08-29-2013 9:59 PM Ossat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by JonF, posted 08-30-2013 8:09 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 224 (705793)
09-02-2013 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
08-29-2013 10:10 AM


You need errors of hundreds of percent before the ages would become acceptable to you.

The required error would have to be at least 800 percent. That would be enough to allow those cave paintings in France and Spain to be post flood. Because they surely could not have survived any world wide flood.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 08-29-2013 10:10 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by mindspawn, posted 09-02-2013 8:31 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 69 of 224 (705794)
09-02-2013 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Coyote
08-29-2013 11:45 AM


Re: Objection unfounded
I thought I would throw in a verification of Carbon dating that I came across today in my reading.

quote:
One of the most striking examples of different dating methods confirming each other is Stonehenge. C-14 dates show that Stonehenge was gradually built over the period from 1900 BC to 1500 BC, long before the Druids, who claimed Stonehenge as their creation, came to England.

Astronomer Gerald S. Hawkins calculated with a computer what the heavens were like back in the second millennium BC, accounting for the precession of the equinoxes, and found that Stonehenge had many significant alignments with various extreme positions of the sun and moon (for example, the hellstone marked the point where the sun rose on the first day of summer). Stonehenge fits the heavens as they were almost four thousand years ago, not as they are today, thereby cross-verifying the C-14 dates.



Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Coyote, posted 08-29-2013 11:45 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by mindspawn, posted 09-02-2013 8:23 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 80 of 224 (705817)
09-02-2013 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by mindspawn
09-02-2013 8:31 AM


That's not how calibration is done...
A small error in calibration in recent history (eg 300 year error) can effect the calibration formulas which in turn can effect dates exponentially.

You have this notion that the calibration curves are obtained by comparing C-14 measurements to historical events. While that would explain why you think Rohl's chronology has some effect on calibration, that notion does is disabused by the way calibration is done. Your notion is what we used to call a GCE (gross conceptual error) in nuclear power school. In that setting graders actually deducted more points from your exam than could be gained by getting a question completely correct for making such errors.

As has been explained to you several times, calibration is done using self dating objects like bristlecone pines and varves, and not by assuming that the some historical event actually happened at some exact date.

It is the case that known historical events can be used to check the calibration, but those events are not the basis for calibration. In fact C-14 dating actually raises questions about those assumed dates.

The calibration adjustment for dates sufficient to rule out a 6000 year earth is less than 10% anyway.

How calibration is really done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

quote:
In the early years of using the technique, it was not assumed that the atmospheric 14C/12C ratio had been the same over the preceding few thousand years. To verify the accuracy of the method, several artefacts that were datable by other techniques were tested; the results of the testing were in reasonable agreement with the true ages of the objects. However, over the next few years significant discrepancies were found, in particular with the chronology of the early Egyptian dynasties: artefact ages derived from radiocarbon testing were several centuries younger than what were thought to be the true ages. The discrepancy was resolved by the study of tree-rings. Comparison of overlapping series of tree-rings allowed the construction of a continuous sequence of tree-ring data that spanned 8,000 years.

Carbon-dating the wood from the tree-rings themselves provided the check needed on the atmospheric 14C/12C ratio: with a sample of known date, and a measurement of the value of N (the number of atoms of 14C remaining in the sample), the carbon-dating equation allows the calculation of N0 (the number of atoms of 14C in the original sample), and hence the original ratio.[24] Armed with the results of carbon-dating the tree rings it became possible to construct calibration curves designed to correct the errors caused by the variation over time in the 14C/12C ratio.


In short Egyptian chronology suggested an error, but was not used to correct calibration.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by mindspawn, posted 09-02-2013 8:31 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 86 of 224 (706011)
09-05-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by mindspawn
09-05-2013 8:13 AM


Re: Objection unfounded
Admin suggested I ignore posts when evidence is not presented. This would encourage a more scientific discussion.

The proper way to ignore a post is to not respond to it. I notice that you are ignoring posts that do present arguments backed up by references. There are several posts on this very page tto which you could have responded. But instead you responded to Paul.

And despite what admin says, responses are allowed to use logical argument that is based on evidence or argument already posted. For example, a perfectly legitimate post would contain argument pointing out errors in your own logic.

And given Percy's notes in this thread noting your propensity to make up stuff, I think it much more likely that Admin's warning was to us about you than vice versa.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by mindspawn, posted 09-05-2013 8:13 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 224 (706417)
09-11-2013 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coyote
09-11-2013 9:53 AM


Re: Bump
He's busy getting his head handed to him on the topics of genetics and how to feed carnivores without losing herbivores. I'm sure he'll join you later.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coyote, posted 09-11-2013 9:53 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by saab93f, posted 10-11-2013 1:29 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 97 of 224 (708681)
10-12-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Coyote
10-11-2013 10:51 PM


You cannot catch fish with stinky bait.
How often does the tactic of starting a thread for the purpose of opening a can of whoop ass on a creationist actually work?

Regardless of his beliefs, mindspawn understands that he knows next to nothing about dating methods except that they all must be wrong. You've seen his laughable attempts at discussing C-14 calibration. Why should he (or Faith, or Big Al) be in any hurry to show up here for a ten on one beat down?

Let's face it. Every single one of the active creationist posters here are rank amateurs in the subjects necessary to hold up their end of these discussions. And unlike the case for their opposition, they cannot help each other because they are making this stuff up as they go.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Coyote, posted 10-11-2013 10:51 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by greentwiga, posted 10-12-2013 11:42 AM NoNukes has responded
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 224 (708691)
10-12-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by greentwiga
10-12-2013 11:42 AM


Re: You cannot catch fish with stinky bait.
Unfortunately, the experts seem to have cherry picked facts that support them. They accept the interpretation the experts promote.

The posters capable of presenting those lines of argument don't seem to be here anymore.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by greentwiga, posted 10-12-2013 11:42 AM greentwiga has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 224 (710180)
11-02-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by RAZD
11-02-2013 3:52 PM


Re: You [won't] say it here
Otherwise known as cognitive dissonance resolution by externalizing it into a conspiracy.

That would be a most charitable explanation. It's also possible that mindspring consciously bailed out of a discussion that was over his head and used moderator failings to cover his tracks.

How long do you think mindspring would last in a discussion where simply saying "I believe" followed by made up "facts" would not be acceptable?

"I believe there are salt water spring tides in Lake Suigetsu"
"I believe we live in a neutron flux of > 10^9 neutrons/cm^2/sec"
"I believe scientists are lying about the varve count"

In the Flood thread and in bluegene's genetics thread, mindspring limited his role to presenting "plausible" alternative to mainstream interpretation where "plausible" was defined as anything mindspawn could post. In this thread, mindspawn correctly and fairly would have been called to present evidence for any of these "I believes".

There was nothing for him to do here but bail as each of those "I believes" was completely unsupportable by evidence.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by RAZD, posted 11-02-2013 3:52 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 152 of 224 (724326)
04-16-2014 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Ed67
04-15-2014 8:52 PM


Re: Wait a minute, buster
Just because someone believes MANKIND is only ~6k years old doesn't mean that he believes the EARTH is that young.

However he likely does believe that the sun and moon are only 6000 years old given that those things were created just a few days before Adam.

Still fairly silly.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Ed67, posted 04-15-2014 8:52 PM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 224 (724582)
04-18-2014 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by RAZD
04-16-2014 11:48 AM


Re: denial is not science
Still doesn't help you with 14C dating methods that extend back to ~40,000 years and validated by annual layer counting methods, tree rings and lake varves.

As long as you are not dating human artifacts and fossils, where is the conflict? He says that he believes the earth is billions of years old? So why does he care about how old rocks and trees are?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by RAZD, posted 04-16-2014 11:48 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 224 (737941)
10-02-2014 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Wyrdly
10-02-2014 4:58 AM


It makes extraordinary claims about the age of mankind and about archaeological finds embedded in coal.

At the heart of all of these kinds of claims is the assumption that coal or other deposits cannot form around an artifact in a short time. Just how plausible is that assumption? If you are reading an anecdote, no matter how truthful the teller, is there enough detail to tell the difference between an ancient lump of coal or an artifact with some sedimentary (from coal) encrustation or other formation of material around it?

The article you link to concludes that there is no explanation and that all of the evidence is hushed up. Does the article provide any support for such a conclusion? Or are you supposed to already know that evolution is perpetrated by liars from the Pits of Hell (tm).


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Wyrdly, posted 10-02-2014 4:58 AM Wyrdly has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2014 1:52 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 224 (737991)
10-03-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by djufo
10-02-2014 8:22 PM


Although scientists invent fictional scenarios, historical data from previous civilizations put the flood around 10-13,000 years ago.

I hope at some point that you will make a post long enough to tell us what your position is on the flood, or creation, or whatever. I'm curious about what you believe, where that comes from, and the historical data you refer to here.

Please pick a topic or two and spend some time.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by djufo, posted 10-02-2014 8:22 PM djufo has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 224 (738314)
10-08-2014 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Percy
10-05-2014 9:57 AM


Re: Curiously 8,000 years is less than 10,000 years
This is the first I've heard this claim, so Googling it I could only find references to the Sumerians believing there were 11 planets, not 9. It seems to be based upon this image (click to enlarge):

I think the most important part of the claim is that the Sumerians understood the solar system to be Heliocentric. As for the number of planets, the definition of a planet is at this point in time is a complete mess. If we count Pluto, then we also ought to count bodies like Eris, Makemake, and Ceres that are of comparable size or are larger than Pluto. At least five dwarf planets are currently recognized with a dozen more objects known.

About the only thing that is clear is that nine is the wrong number if we intend to find that the Sumerians had special knowledge of the solar system. No way to justify nine. If we include the moon we ought to include at least Titan, Ganymede, Callisto, and Io. In fact there are 100s of moons in the solar system. But then the Sumerians did not use the number nine. So djufo is wrong, but more detail is needed to evaluate Sumerian knowledge. I'm sure there is plenty o 'Chariot of the Gods' style BS to be found on the subject.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Percy, posted 10-05-2014 9:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Astrophile, posted 12-04-2014 1:53 AM NoNukes has responded

  
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