Age of mankind, dating, and the flood

Message 136 of 224 (710120) 11-01-2013 9:05 PM

Reply to: Message 121 by mindspawn 10-23-2013 7:29 AM

In other words you are saying that scientist are conspiring to falsify data on a global scale?

Really?

Again, I suggest you read Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 and then provide me with some rational for the correlations that isn't just wishful thinking -- on based on actual objective empirical evidence.

See the graph in Message 134 and tell me why the age vs depth slopes change at the same point for both varve layer and C-14 age ...

Enjoy.

Message 137 of 224 (710122) 11-01-2013 9:10 PM

Reply to: Message 131 by mindspawn 10-31-2013 4:41 AM

Perhaps you would like to attempt to discuss this on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1, which starts with dendrochronology and the correlations between tree ring data and ages.

l have pointed you towards this thread several times, as you really need to address the correlations issue.

Enjoy

Message 138 of 224 (710125) 11-01-2013 9:44 PM

Reply to: Message 137 by RAZD 11-01-2013 9:10 PM

I think that he has run out of "what ifs" to try to rationalize his beliefs, and is hesitant to participate any further because those beliefs might not be able to withstand the evidence we've been providing.

At this point we're seeing one of several typical creationist retreats: in this case the problem is blamed on unfair moderation, rather than the poor quality of his arguments.

Message 139 of 224 (710177) 11-02-2013 3:52 PM

Reply to: Message 138 by Coyote 11-01-2013 9:44 PM

Otherwise known as cognitive dissonance resolution by externalizing it into a conspiracy.

Enjoy

Message 140 of 224 (710180) 11-02-2013 6:08 PM

Reply to: Message 139 by RAZD 11-02-2013 3:52 PM

That would be a most charitable explanation. It's also possible that mindspring consciously bailed out of a discussion that was over his head and used moderator failings to cover his tracks.

How long do you think mindspring would last in a discussion where simply saying "I believe" followed by made up "facts" would not be acceptable?

"I believe there are salt water spring tides in Lake Suigetsu"
"I believe we live in a neutron flux of > 10^9 neutrons/cm^2/sec"
"I believe scientists are lying about the varve count"

In the Flood thread and in bluegene's genetics thread, mindspring limited his role to presenting "plausible" alternative to mainstream interpretation where "plausible" was defined as anything mindspawn could post. In this thread, mindspawn correctly and fairly would have been called to present evidence for any of these "I believes".

There was nothing for him to do here but bail as each of those "I believes" was completely unsupportable by evidence.

Message 142 of 224 (710214) 11-03-2013 8:46 AM

Reply to: Message 141 by mindspawn 11-03-2013 5:13 AM

Enjoy

Message 143 of 224 (710216) 11-03-2013 9:03 AM

Reply to: Message 102 by mindspawn 10-22-2013 3:05 AM

Yes, of course it's well known. No one ever denied this. No one ever said that saltwater intrusion doesn't happen. That you are issuing a rebuttal of a claim never made is yet another indication of your comprehension issues.

You claimed that varve layers would form from spring tides. I responded that the cores were taken from the center of lake Suigetsu around 3 miles from the ocean where the bottom is 20 meters above sea level. You were asked for evidence that tides could cause varve layers 3 miles from the ocean and 20 meters above sea level. You instead replied with the non sequitur, "Saltwater intrusion into the water table is well known." Well, duh.

By the way, you rebutted yourself in your own response when you quoted from Transient groundwater dynamics in a coastal aquifer: The effects of tides, the lunar cycle, and the beach profile:

It's a mere footnote that fiction has a greater influence on your beliefs than facts - we see this here all the time. What is truly perplexing is why you expect to convince anyone else with barely a single fact on your side.

--Percy

Message 144 of 224 (710218) 11-03-2013 9:59 AM

Reply to: Message 143 by Percy 11-03-2013 9:03 AM

Hum, I missed that. But I see it now.

Message 145 of 224 (710220) 11-03-2013 10:27 AM

Reply to: Message 141 by mindspawn 11-03-2013 5:13 AM

There is no moderation problem. There is only your habit of posting imaginary "what-ifs" as if they were evidence, coupled with chasing any convenient rabbit hole you can fall into.

If you had any serious evidence you would have posted it by now.

The issue of this thread is the accuracy of radiocarbon dating, but you have wandered into fantasies about sea water intrusion into one varve series while ignoring all the evidence that points to radiocarbon dating being sufficiently accurate to demolish both the young earth and global flood at 4,350 years ago claims.

But, I'll play the game of a one-on-one thread if you like.

However, I'm not going to chase you down rabbit holes. You'll stick to the topic or you'll be talking to yourself.

Message 146 of 224 (710223) 11-03-2013 11:27 AM

Reply to: Message 104 by mindspawn 10-22-2013 3:12 AM

But that's not what you're doing. You're claiming that processes that are merely legitmate processes that actually exist are the ones actually responsible in contradiction to all evidence. Then you're ignoring, or just as often misunderstanding or misinterpreting, the evidence.

Follow the evidence where it leads. (And use the correct definition of terms, like "correlated" and "terrestrial".)

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Clarify.

Message 147 of 224 (710250) 11-03-2013 9:35 PM

Reply to: Message 145 by Coyote 11-03-2013 10:27 AM

One single tree older than that is sufficient to invalidate that claim.

Amusingly there are three such trees known so far:

From Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1

quote:

---

Message 2: http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/...le/pi/pin/longaeva.htm (5)

The oldest known living specimen is the "Methuselah" tree, sampled by Schulman and Harlan in the White Mountains of CA, for which 4,789 years are verified by crossdating. An age of 4,844 years was determined post-mortem (after being cut down) for specimen WPM-114 from Wheeler Peak, NV. ...

---

As of today those trees would be:

• 4,845 years (in 2013 for "Methusulah" ... and counting ...).
  
• 4,893 years (in 2013 for "Prometheus" ... and counting ...).

and:

quote:

---

Message 269: http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm

... The tree was cored by Edmund Schulman in the late 1950s but he never had a chance to date it before he died. Tom worked up the core only recently, and knows which tree it is. The tree is still alive, and the age given below, 5062, is the tree's age as of the growing season of 2012.

---

So Schulman's tree would be

• 5,063 years (in 2013 ... and counting ...).

AND the consilience of tree ring data, climate effect on ring thickness and 14C data of these 3 trees all show the validity of both dendrochronology and 14C age measurements for this period.

Other trees extend this data even further into the past:

quote:

---

Message 269: http://www.ashtarcommandcrew.net/...topics/the-ancient-trees
... The climate and the durability of their wood can preserve them long after death, with dead trees as old as 7,000 years persisting next to live ones.

---

Which means that -- as a minimum there has been no world killing flood for 7,000 years ... since the tree germinated and grew to old age and died. Tying it in to the ages measured by the above three trees would make it even older, identifying when the tree died by matching rings with the living trees via the science of dendrochronology.

This is, of course, discussed in greater detail on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1.

The correlation with 14C data is discussed on Message 4:

quote:

---

These calibration curves have been extended now to the limits of Carbon-14 dating, but it is also of interest to look at just the Carbon-14 calibration curve for dendrochronology - the results of matching tree-rings to Carbon-14 levels and their implied "C-14 age":

http://www.ipp.phys.ethz.ch/...arbon/HajdasPhDthesis1993.pdf (9)

quote:

---

---

This means we can look at the "C-14 age" as a measurement of the Carbon-14 actually remaining in the samples from what was absorbed from the atmosphere at the time that the tree-rings were formed and note the following:

• If there were numerous errors in the tree-ring data caused by false rings (as proposed by Dr. Don Batten), then this would show up as a steep rising "C-14 age" that would be much younger than the recorded tree-ring age. This is not the case.
• The false rings would also have to be perfectly matched for each of the species used for the overall dendrochronology ages or the "C-14 age" for each one would be different and the line of calibration would be extremely blurred. This is not the case.
• The age derived from Carbon-14 analysis is consistently younger than the actual age measured by the numerous tree-ring chronologies in pre-historical times, meaning that C-14 dating underestimates the ages of objects.

---

Enjoy

Message 149 of 224 (724306) 04-15-2014 9:02 PM

Reply to: Message 147 by RAZD 11-03-2013 9:35 PM

"Beware the sound of one hand clapping" -Stephen Meyer

And furthermore, wherever did you get the idea that the FLOOD KILLED ALL VEGETATION? What do you think Noah saw when coming out of the ark, a MOONSCAPE?

Message 150 of 224 (724316) 04-15-2014 10:14 PM

Reply to: Message 149 by Ed67 04-15-2014 9:02 PM

Explain how it would have not destroyed all vegetation. You can do an experiment at home: grow 2 plants (any will do) side by side. Once both have reached about maturity, submerge one of them in water and leave it there for ~30 days and leave the other out and continue to tend to it. What do you think will happen? Do non-water based (edit: aquatic) plants survive with no CO2 to breathe? Can non-water based (edit: aquatic) plants survive submerged under water for 40 days? Take great caution because this is the science section of EvC, so your faith is useless as is "magic" or "god works in weird and wacky ways".

Also, typing in capitals doesn't bolster your argument. It makes you look like a loon.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.