The moral implications of evolution, and their discontents.

Yeerrz...maaarthda....

Lol, because it make no claims about such issues and contradicts neither. Second request: Then why did you say evolution can accomodate both 'presuppositions'?Did you make a mistake or has your position changed during these exchanges?General Reader: This is a good example of why evolutionists are considered dishonest. I really do not expect to get a real answer, but more clowning pretending not to know. I think it is obvious that Larni is embrarrassed and is compounding his errors with each post. Like I said: what else is new? This is the Darwinian way: admit nothing even though it is beyond obvious.Ray

General Reader: This is a good example of why fundie creationists are considered dishonest. I (we) really do not expect to get a real answer, just more clowning around to evade their lack of knowledge and that they are in fact wrong. What else is new? This is the ray (herepton, CFO, etc) way specifically, fundie creo way in general: admit nothing even though it is beyond obvious.What you posted, ray, is bullshit and a lie (although a lie implies intentional disception, and I'm pretty sure you don't mean to intentionally decieve).What I have re-written is the truth. One need travel no further than Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, DSI, Behe, AIG, and any other creo organization or head person. One also need travel no further than the creos on this forum to see this in action.By the way, you never admit to being wrong or mistaken.

Well maybe that means you grew up and decided what your standards would be. I assume you grew up a nominal 'Christian' much like myself having no particular clue until 'science' changed your mind.
Apart from that, you are nonetheless in a minority I would think since Christianity tends to bring more awareness of where one is going wrong. Unless you take God's standards as that ( of course if there is no God as you clearly believe, then yes you would be right) Relative to what? To each other? I don't know, am I living in a different world? -I just see corruption, thieving, murdering, hijacking, raping (and here in South Africa, most of it doesn't even get reported) and yes there are some normal people, but overall standards are certainly dropping. Well if materialism is all there is -if there is only change in allele frequencies accounting for everything we see and every bit of life that exists, then it's survival of the fittest (or most selfish) and why not? ???Where did you read that into what I said? I'm not afraid of punishment, I don't have to be. I'm afraid for the people that believe there is no God.If I ever try to convince someone that God exists, I'm not doing it for myself, I already know God is real.
Your own morality can never save you from God's judgement. You can be as moral as you like and you're still lost.
I grew up moral and I thought 'if there is a God, I'm sure he'll be quite happy with me, I'm doing alright'. I was wrong.
Anyway, apart from that -the world is generally corrupt and getting worse.I absolutely believe that belief in evolution, in its fullest sense (meaning there is no God, only matter and chance), helps that degeneration.
If there is no God AND your parents don't teach you (they're too busy) things go downhill. Maybe it's pure mutation - but something's going on and it's not an uphill change.By the way, anyone from admin, whatever I say will be off topic and ludicrous and laughable on this site (it is an evolutionist's site) so suspend me -my internet is so slow, I won't even notice because that's how long it takes me to open a page.

Neither do you. Ray's wrong, you're right, it works both ways. Personally....Ray makes far more sense to me -(just my stupid creationist opinion).

well, here's the thing. I do admit when I'm wrong or mistaken. The only way you could make that statement is if you have read every single one of my posts and if you actually knew me. You haven't, and you don't.
Hell, even AIG is beginning to admit that they've been seriously wrong on several points. The closer to sanity one is, the more likely they'll admit to being wrong about something.The trouble with ray (I don't know enough about you to say anything about your habits yet) is that practically every single statement he makes is wrong to some degree when compared to the reality everyone lives in. He may very well be right about things in his own deluded reality, but dead wrong in the one every single person actually lives in.We have another poster, buzsaw, who has some peculiar ideas about science. A poster who left a few months back displayed the same qualities--rob. Faith (yet another poster) would simply give up and say "I'm right, you're wrong, I just don't know how to prove it" no matter the evidence proving her wrong. These people have all been arguing, essentially, that 2+2=5 is right, and no amount of evidence proving that 2+2 actually =4 will convince them.The problem with your type is precisely what ray accuses us of (quite falsely, too)--a preset idea as to what is right with the compounded problem being willing to use any cockamnie idea to support your position, regardless of whether it does or not (hence ideas like the vapor canopy gain traction). You all lead the evidence to a predetermined conclusion, instead of approaching the subject with an open mind because you are afraid that anything you consider could diminish your god(s) will destroy your belief in said god(s). What kind of little god(s) do you belief in? And that's the saddest part, for me. You try to defend such little, unimportant, unimpressive godlets instead of some grand entity. Worse still, you think your godlet is the grand entity. Grow up. Just cause santa doesn't actually have flying reindeer doesn't mean he doesn't exist. It just means santa has become a littler bit more reasonable.

Then why didn't it stop Oral Robert's son from misspending all that money? Why doesn't it stop all those fleecing pastures and preachers? Why doesn't it stop people like Ted Haggard? Or Mark Foley? Or any other number of people? Or is it that these people are like Claudius--they know they're wrong but it just feels so good they won't stop? Which god? Your god? Ray's god? Jar's god? RAZD's god? Christina's god? Zues? Odin? Loki? Vishnu? Allah?
And how do we know we have that god's standard's right? Do you know what god wants or thinks? Why is it so many christians have no problem lying, when one of those commandents are "thou shalt not lie"? Or is it, for those who blatantly lie, "thou shalt not lie unless it's to help me"? or some such inanity? Can you actually demonstrate an absolute morality that holds up to examination? You know, they were saying the exact same thing before WWI. In fact, by that point, people were welcoming war to fix the social ills. Oh fuck, is this why conservatives support the Iraq war? Or you know, maybe the end of aparthied has actually raised the standards? A comment I'd expect someone to say who has never studied anything about evolution, or specifically what role society plays in evolutionary history and how society affects survival. Being shunned is not exactly a great way to get a mate. Oops, so much for being selfish being so great in a social species.The rest of your post is equally inane.

Brilliant! Ask the same question again. Genius.As an answer (again):'Evolution' does not state there was no act of creation.

Kuresu, let me start by saying that I enjoyed your latest post (as a way of keeping it ever so slightly on topic). The many lies of so many "Christians" are so well documented that it's stunning the denial(s) they put forth.Nonetheless, on to the reason for this message. In looking at you photo, you look so unbelievably familiar to someone I know that I have to ask...are you really from Boulder Co (...or maybe I should ask...are you currently in Boulder Co), and/or are you actually living on an Island out in Lake Michigan?

Is this a surprise? Read the OP; is it really difficult to figure out what the topic is? Read your post; is it really difficult to figure whether it matches the topic?Odd. I thought that the U.S. educational system was pretty bad. Don't they teach reading and writing skills in South Africa? I mean skill beyond just reading the label of an aspirin bottle -- things like reading comprehension and writing to make a point?By the way, I do realize that the post to which you're responding was way off-topic, but that was written to answer an off-topic post of your own.Look, I started this thread because I thought evolution and racism was something you wanted to talk about, since you brought it up in a thread where it wasn't appropriate. Evidently, I was wrong.What do you want to talk about? Try opening a thread on that topic. Personally, I don't care if this thread goes in this particular direction; morality and god is interesting enough, but judging from your posting history here, I kind of figure that pretty soon you'll be going off on yet another unrelated topic.I've asked this before, but doesn't it strike you that maybe your inability to remain on a given topic for any length of time indicates that you haven't really given enough thought to any of these subjects to reach a reasonable conclusion?Edited by Chiroptera, : typo

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If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe

No Beretta,I can assure you we're living in the same world if you include the term "deception".

As far as I can recall, I've never been to Michigan.

An interesting exercise for you might be to visit prisons and test those convicted of the crimes you mention on their understanding of the theory of evolution. I'd expect it to be very low, and non-existent in many cases.I think you'll find that levels of belief in God in South Africa are considerably higher than in some much less crime ridden societies, like Sweden, for example.You mention hi-jacking, strangely, as it seems, like suicide bombing, to be a popular passtime amongst the God fearing.Would it surprise you if the most religious country in the "west" was also the one with the highest murder rate? Not me.There seems to be a connection between high superstition rates and high levels of violent crime in societies.This fits the history of Christendom. Europe was a very violent place compared to modern standards when Christianity was at its height.Rates of religious disbelief within societies tend to go up amongst those with higher education levels. Crime rates go down with the same.Little, if anything, seems to back your view that superstition based morality is a good thing.

I don't know but I'd like to place a bet that most of these people are Materialistic and/or Greedy and/or Atheistic". Perfect products of evolution.