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Author Topic:   Biblical Eugenics - being wrong about how to colorize your goats
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 185 (706553)
09-13-2013 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
09-12-2013 10:39 AM


Hello CS, Jacob is breeding animals and keeping the strong.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-12-2013 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-13-2013 2:21 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 185 (706555)
09-13-2013 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
09-13-2013 2:21 PM


No Jacob is not. It's just either to help them mate or help them be born stronger. Worse case scenario we're talking about Jacob not knowing it will not help. It does not state god told him to do it. This does not hurt literalist's at all.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-13-2013 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 09-13-2013 8:01 PM Alias has responded
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2013 8:47 AM Alias has responded
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 5:56 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 185 (706560)
09-14-2013 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
09-13-2013 8:01 PM


Re: Making stuff up.
Hello jar, I have read this passage several times and also read different versions. It seems that in verse 35 (context of v 32-33) jacob removed the sparkled, spotted and streaked flock from laban's stock. Then in verse 37-39 jacob used the flock "he removed from laban's flock and gave to his sons" to breed (hence his request in v 32-33) and they bore sparkled, spotted and streaked flock in 39. We can also see that Jacob had access to the streaked, sparkled and spotted flock in 30:40

quote:
'Jacob set apart the young of the flock by themselves, but made the rest face the streaked and dark-colored animals that belonged to Laban. Thus he made separate flocks for himself and did not put them with Laban’s animals.'

In verse 41 jacob kept the strong animals and used them to breed for himself more strong animals. The idea I'm seeing is the branches were used to help breed (hence why they were in front of the flock as they mated) and it also seems he used the branches to breed stronger animals since that's what he kept.

I think the issue is that this story is not clear in verse 35-36. I feel it does change the entire context of the story depending on how you interpret those verses. Verse 32 makes it more clear that jacob is the one referred to in 35 (hence the request that he removes the flock) (laban has no sons and 35 reads he gave them to his sons). Some may interpret 35 as laban removing the flock due to 34 because 34 is laban and in 35 it uses "he" for the third word (a pronoun in english perhaps not in the original writings) (ref to jacob though which it also seems like it could refer to laban) making it seem like jacob started with non sparkled, streaked, or spotted flock in 38. In 36 laban left leaving 3 days between him and jacob, and then ALSO (on top of jacob removing the flock and giving the flock to his sons in 35) jacob tended the other flock of labans in 36. Ultimately if you read 35 as jacob is removing the flock noted in the verse and reusing them to breed near the branches (his wages) it does not read as though he thought the branches were making them spotted, streaked or sparkled. It does also seem as though the breeding of new flock was to breed his wages. AGAIN as mentioned earlier if you read 30:40 it does make it more clear that jacob removed the flock in 35 because he has access to them in 30:40.

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : err fix

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 09-13-2013 8:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 09-14-2013 10:23 AM Alias has responded
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 1:57 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 185 (706562)
09-14-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
09-14-2013 8:47 AM


NoNukes writes:

The Bible describes the silly tactic as actually working. Do you not see a problem with that?

No. I am not a bible literalist. I don't think the bible is inerrant. I feel it is corrupt but you have to sift through it to find important god inspired scriptures. God inspired does not mean god wrote it, it just means "maybe" a prophet wrote it. I am a skeptic but also a theist (agnostic theist).

Edited by Alias, : quote


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2013 8:47 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 1:36 PM Alias has responded
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 3:31 AM Alias has responded
 Message 38 by Larni, posted 09-15-2013 2:25 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 185 (706563)
09-14-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
09-14-2013 10:23 AM


Re: Making stuff up.
Ref to post 17.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 09-14-2013 10:23 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 185 (706569)
09-14-2013 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Theodoric
09-14-2013 1:36 PM


Haha. Poor you. You can't come up with a good argument. Evolution is an imaginative thought. The same facts that support it support intelligent design. If you want to talk about it let's open up that conversation. FYI: evolution is not contrary to creationism (pantheism).

ALSO Let's add context to your quote. Here is another one from Einstein.


“I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind...

to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein (1929)”

― Albert Einstein

Ref

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Quote


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 1:36 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Coyote, posted 09-14-2013 2:52 PM Alias has responded
 Message 25 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 10:14 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 185 (706572)
09-14-2013 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coyote
09-14-2013 2:52 PM


Re: Nonsense
If its off topic then "you people" need to stop asserting. Go ahead start a new topic. Patently false, lol hahaha!

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Coyote, posted 09-14-2013 2:52 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 26 of 185 (706579)
09-14-2013 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Theodoric
09-14-2013 10:14 PM


I was responding to you. You started that conversation. Ask yourself.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 10:14 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 185 (706589)
09-15-2013 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 3:31 AM


NoNukes writes:

That's fine. But the claim I am asking you defend is the one I quote below in which you claim that the sheep breeding story can be taken literally.

Alias writes:

This does not hurt literalist's at all.

NoNukes writes:

Really? Any defense for this?

Well what theological reason is there to defend it? I don't see how Jacob not understanding that "using the branches" will not help the "flock mate or breed stronger flock" harms the bible from a literalist vantage. It does show the lack of scientific understanding for a ancient individual but isn't that expected? So literally we learn ancients didn't understand genetics. How does this harm the overall vantage of the bible being interpreted literally as the word of god? It has no reflection on god at all since this was not an instruction from god. There certainly is nothing going on that the atheists are claiming in this thread either (it is expected for atheists to interpret this story as per their claims in this thread though). There is no con happening (again expected for atheists to read it this way). There is no eugenics happening (expected for atheists to read it this way). I don't know that atheists manipulate this story to be dishonest or just because of their natural vantage of things overall, so they don't realize that they are merely interpreting it that way. In any case, I am not a christian nor a literalist and my interpretation of this is simply "Jacob getting paid by Laban". Verse 30:30 - 30:34. Refer to my other posts for my other points against other claims in this thread.

Genesis 30:30-34 NIV writes:

30 The little you had before I came has increased greatly, and the LORD has blessed you wherever I have been. But now, when may I do something for my own household?”

31 “What shall I give you?” he asked. “Don’t give me anything,” Jacob replied. “But if you will do this one thing for me, I will go on tending your flocks and watching over them:

32 Let me go through all your flocks today and remove from them every speckled or spotted sheep, every dark-colored lamb and every spotted or speckled goat. They will be my wages.

33 And my honesty will testify for me in the future, whenever you check on the wages you have paid me. Any goat in my possession that is not speckled or spotted, or any lamb that is not dark-colored, will be considered stolen.”

34 “Agreed,” said Laban. “Let it be as you have said.”

Then if you follow this story into chapter 31 we find laban meeting up with jacob after jacob leaves. Laban has nothing to say about the flock/payment (except that everything is his which is not true because it was payment AND he must pay for the work of Jacob as is mentioned over and over) however he was technically upset about his gods being taken and his children/grandchildren being taken without a goodbye (which his own daughter stole the gods). Technically labans children/grand children are also Jacobs since they are his wives/children and they don't HAVE to say goodbye..... I mean all this noise in this thread is silly.


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 3:31 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 185 (706590)
09-15-2013 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 3:41 AM


Re: a test for honesty.
Ref to post 17 this is my response to you. Jacob removes the flock not laban. There is no con and there is no cheater. FYI: I did make some changes to it just a few minutes ago so you may want to reread it before responding, if you still disagree.

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 3:41 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 1:46 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 185 (706591)
09-15-2013 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
09-15-2013 8:48 AM


Re: a test for honesty.
Ref to post 17, I made some changes to it for clarity.

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 09-15-2013 8:48 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 185 (706596)
09-15-2013 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 1:46 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
No 34 states that it be according to jacob's word which was in 32.

quote:
I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire.

The rest of your point is moot.

Then we have 30:40 which shows jacob still had them.

quote:
And Jacob did separate the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the ringstraked, and all the brown in the flock of Laban; and he put his own flocks by themselves, and put them not unto Laban's cattle.

Edited by Alias, : err

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : Err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 1:46 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 2:05 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 185 (706597)
09-15-2013 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 1:57 PM


Re: Making stuff up.
The gods were stolen and jacob left. Laban thought jacob stole the gods which is why laban was upset. And OK laban has sons. Does not change anything as per 30:40. Point still stands in post 17 with exception to my comments on labans sons.

Edited by Alias, : err

Edited by Alias, : err

Edited by Alias, : Clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 1:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 185 (706600)
09-15-2013 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 2:05 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
No 35 is referring to jacob due to their agreement in 32. Ref to post 17 for my point on 36. In verse 40, if Laban removed the sparkled, spotted and streaked flock in 35 to cheat jacob, why does jacob have access to the sparkled, spotted and streaked flock of laban's?

Edited by Alias, : Question

Edited by Alias, : Question about Vera 40

Edited by Alias, : Question about verse 40!


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 2:05 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 10:46 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 185 (706601)
09-15-2013 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 2:05 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Logic. In short, Jesus didn't walk on water. The red sea was not parted in the exodus. Stuff that is clear myth is myth. Revelation in other cases like genesis 1-2. Order of creation is not important if it were they would of wrote them in the same order. We can probably see actual order of creation in the fossil record.

Edited by Alias, : Clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 2:05 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 6:35 PM Alias has responded
 Message 44 by frako, posted 09-15-2013 7:06 PM Alias has responded
 Message 77 by Larni, posted 09-16-2013 4:32 PM Alias has not yet responded

  
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