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Author Topic:   Morals without God or Darwin, just Empathy
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 121 of 184 (382152)
02-03-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by anastasia
02-03-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:

I feel that we are dualist in nature.

Again, this is just a feeling. Do you base all your conclusion regarding the world on feelings?

Ana writes:

I contend that my 'knowledge' of what I must do, of what is right in any situation, is not knowledge of the 'learned' variety, but of the imnparted.

Total rubbish. State how this is so.

Ana writes:

I only deny that 'right' is a product of our own invention.

With no reason apart from a 'feeling' that this is the case? Please show how this is so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 1:30 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:14 PM Larni has responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4274 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 122 of 184 (382155)
02-03-2007 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Larni
02-03-2007 1:50 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Larni writes:

Humans are in debt to no entity for their existance.

That is merely YOUR belief, is it not? Or have you proof of this assertion?

Your belief that this is true, does not in any way make it true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Larni, posted 02-03-2007 1:50 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ReverendDG, posted 02-04-2007 5:38 AM anastasia has responded
 Message 129 by Larni, posted 02-05-2007 4:39 AM anastasia has responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4274 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 123 of 184 (382157)
02-03-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Larni
02-03-2007 1:59 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Larni writes:

Total rubbish. State how this is so

Find me a study of a human being who has been kept alone for all of his life, and prove to me that he shows nothing of what we consider 'morality'. Then, I may believe that morals are learned. Specific moral codes are learned, morality itself is not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Larni, posted 02-03-2007 1:59 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by iceage, posted 02-03-2007 4:56 PM anastasia has not yet responded
 Message 126 by ReverendDG, posted 02-04-2007 5:52 AM anastasia has responded
 Message 130 by Larni, posted 02-05-2007 4:41 AM anastasia has not yet responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4236 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 124 of 184 (382177)
02-03-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by anastasia
02-03-2007 2:14 PM


Re: Empathy does not equal Good
Ana writes:

Find me a study of a human being who has been kept alone for all of his life, and prove to me that he shows nothing of what we consider 'morality'. Then, I may believe that morals are learned.

That is a bit of extreme is it?

However there may be some instruction in examining earlier cultures.

Some examples without looking anything up are:

  • Spartans trained their boys that stealing was good and encouraged it, but being sloppy and getting caught was not.

  • The Romans considered it sport to watch people kill and tear each other apart in the arena.

  • To many native american cultures, owning a horse or other property stolen from a different tribe was cool.

  • Most early cultures put no taboos on infanticide

  • To most early cultures the killing of strangers was normal and the first reaction. Possessing some souvenir of the act was a symbol of prestige.

  • Most early cultures consider slavery as acceptable.

  • Many cultures consider women as not fully human. Most legal issues concerning women centered on women being property only. Justice from the womens point of view was non-existent. In the old testament and within the Muslim tradition the notion of salvation was a male only concept.

    As a side note I recently I read Samuel Hearne's journal of his account exploring the northern part of Canada. Read that first witness account will change any beliefs you may have that the 10 commandments are written onto the hearts of humans. The stories told in that account haunted me for days.

    What we consider moral or ethics today is the result of the maturation and evolution of culture.


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 123 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:14 PM anastasia has not yet responded

      
    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 2432 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 125 of 184 (382292)
    02-04-2007 5:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 122 by anastasia
    02-03-2007 2:09 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    That is merely YOUR belief, is it not? Or have you proof of this assertion?

    you can't prove a negative, the default is, there is no entity to pay, you have to show its real, not us showing it doesn't

    Your belief that this is true, does not in any way make it true.

    nor does it make the enitity real, eather, but having no belief in something is more logical than having a belief despite no evidence

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 122 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:09 PM anastasia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 127 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 12:26 PM ReverendDG has responded

      
    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 2432 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 126 of 184 (382293)
    02-04-2007 5:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 123 by anastasia
    02-03-2007 2:14 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    Find me a study of a human being who has been kept alone for all of his life, and prove to me that he shows nothing of what we consider 'morality'. Then, I may believe that morals are learned. Specific moral codes are learned, morality itself is not.

    so explain to me what 'morality' is first? how do you define what is and isn't morality?
    unless you can show that there is some universal morality that every human who ever lived has, then all morality is learned through a culture

    you learn stealing from your family is wrong, murdering your family is wrong, destroying close reletives property is wrong, while on the other hand, you learn doing it to strangers is not.
    or you learn doing things considered wrong or bares out negitive consiquences, to anyone is wrong.

    please show some morality that everyone shares, because i know from anthropology, that not everyone shares the same morality

    cannibulism is considered only wrong if you are the one being eatten, but not to the cannibul


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 123 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:14 PM anastasia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 128 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 4:08 PM ReverendDG has responded

      
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4274 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 127 of 184 (382340)
    02-04-2007 12:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 125 by ReverendDG
    02-04-2007 5:38 AM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    ReverendDG writes:

    you can't prove a negative, the default is, there is no entity to pay, you have to show its real, not us showing it doesn't

    There is no one to thank for my blessings except nature. Thankfulness without a benefactor is called vanity.

    There is no default. Given a total lack of evidence I may choose to believe that I will die a natural death, or to believe that I will die suddenly and violently.

    nor does it make the enitity real, eather, but having no belief in something is more logical than having a belief despite no evidence

    Why is it so hard to understand? You do not have no belief. You have a belief in nothing. You belief 'nothing' exists, in spite of the lack of evidence that there is no God. I believe that 'something' exists, in spite of the lack of evidence that there is a God. We all have a belief. Yours is that there is nothing more than what we see, mine is that there is.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by ReverendDG, posted 02-04-2007 5:38 AM ReverendDG has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 131 by Larni, posted 02-05-2007 4:53 AM anastasia has responded
     Message 133 by ReverendDG, posted 02-05-2007 5:00 AM anastasia has not yet responded

      
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4274 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 128 of 184 (382420)
    02-04-2007 4:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 126 by ReverendDG
    02-04-2007 5:52 AM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    ReverendDG writes:

    please show some morality that everyone shares,

    Oh, no. We don't share the same morals, but we certainly share morality. Our morals amount to our individual and collective best-guesses at what is 'right'. We can limit this to love for ourself, our family, and our tribe. You and Iceage have shown that morality did indeed exist amoung primitive and civilied ancient cultures, but a limited moral system which included only those toward whom we felt a kinship.

    The first efforts at 'civiling' the savage, were often those of the christian missionaries. History has come to despise the forced recognition of higher morals through religious leadership. Yet, that same moral system taught in the Bible and elsewhere in religious text, is the same 'love of enemies' and respect for those outside of our immediate 'tribe'. Morals have definitely come a long way, evolved, etc. We have been able to see past survival of the fittest, and have enjoyed prosperity long enough to begin to focus on the larger picture. If there is no God, where will our picture end? We are all striving for better, we are confident that better is possible, but we often fail to realize that better existed before we had even understood it. There will always be a better way, and more to learn. The only real difference is that I believe there is a 'best' a God/force perfection which is external to us and which we tap into, teaching what we have learned about it to the next generation. The onus is still on us; we need to LOOK for better, but we can't look for 'natural'. We look to ourselves and find a fight between nature, and 'better'. Sure, it is a learning process for a society, as a society is a reflection of a middle ground between the worst and the best. Our efforts at morality are not limited to what society has taught us. A single person is capable of tapping into a higher 'force' while the rest of society remains mediocre. To be concrete in terms, a saint or a hero has reached a stage of greater union with 'better' than the average member of a society. This shows me that something exists to be utilized which is greater than us, but can be found internally in great perfection while the 'tribe' is still far behind in moral developement.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 126 by ReverendDG, posted 02-04-2007 5:52 AM ReverendDG has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 132 by Larni, posted 02-05-2007 4:55 AM anastasia has not yet responded
     Message 134 by ReverendDG, posted 02-05-2007 5:14 AM anastasia has not yet responded

      
    Larni
    Member
    Posts: 3990
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 129 of 184 (382545)
    02-05-2007 4:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 122 by anastasia
    02-03-2007 2:09 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    You make a very sad, old point here: you are the one asserting that we owe some entity our existance.

    I make NO claim.

    The burden of proof is on you to show that what you believe is positively true.

    I say there is nothing there: you must bring evidence to support your positive claim.

    If you can't show evidence that what you believe is true, then I have nothing to attempt argue against because you have provivded no positive evidence that what you calim has any basis in reality.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 122 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:09 PM anastasia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 140 by anastasia, posted 02-05-2007 3:54 PM Larni has responded

      
    Larni
    Member
    Posts: 3990
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 130 of 184 (382546)
    02-05-2007 4:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 123 by anastasia
    02-03-2007 2:14 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    Again, you are making a claim and refuse to substantiate your positive reasons for doing so.

    Please substantiate your claim or withdraw.

    Unless, again, you are bored.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 123 by anastasia, posted 02-03-2007 2:14 PM anastasia has not yet responded

      
    Larni
    Member
    Posts: 3990
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 131 of 184 (382547)
    02-05-2007 4:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 127 by anastasia
    02-04-2007 12:26 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    Ana writes:

    Thankfulness without a benefactor is called vanity.

    What a stupid, stupid position to hold.

    I am thankful today that the sun is out. I know that there is no one to thank, but because human brains infer causality I 'feel' thankful.

    How the hell is that vanity?

    Ana writes:

    in spite of the lack of evidence that there is no God.

    As has been explained several time to you before: this is appallingly bad logic.

    Ana writes:

    Yours is that there is nothing more than what we see, mine is that there is.

    Again: You. Need. To. Substantiate. Your. Assertion. With. Positive. Evidence.

    I could assert that the IPU tells me how to live my live via telepathy and will take me away to its' cloud when I die to live with all the other invisible coloured unicorns and there is NO WAY that you could proove I was wrong.

    Thats why you can't look for negative evidence.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 127 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 12:26 PM anastasia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 143 by anastasia, posted 02-05-2007 4:46 PM Larni has responded

      
    Larni
    Member
    Posts: 3990
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 132 of 184 (382548)
    02-05-2007 4:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 128 by anastasia
    02-04-2007 4:08 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    You still have to show that this 'higher force' exists.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 4:08 PM anastasia has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 170 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-09-2007 4:43 PM Larni has responded

      
    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 2432 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 133 of 184 (382549)
    02-05-2007 5:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 127 by anastasia
    02-04-2007 12:26 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    There is no one to thank for my blessings except nature. Thankfulness without a benefactor is called vanity.

    and this has what to do with what i said? what you are saying is irrelevent.

    There is no default. Given a total lack of evidence I may choose to believe that I will die a natural death, or to believe that I will die suddenly and violently.

    what are you talking about? what does this even mean? i don't see how it relates to what i said about the default of the existince of god or the supernatural is it doesn't exist till shown it does

    Why is it so hard to understand? You do not have no belief. You have a belief in nothing. You belief 'nothing' exists, in spite of the lack of evidence that there is no God. I believe that 'something' exists, in spite of the lack of evidence that there is a God. We all have a belief. Yours is that there is nothing more than what we see, mine is that there is.

    where did i say anything about my belief or lack there of? i believe there is a force out there, belief is belief though, its a pure subjective thing. i do believe in a god, just not the christian personal god or the islamic or any of the religions that exist now, they are all wrong

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 127 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 12:26 PM anastasia has not yet responded

      
    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 2432 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 134 of 184 (382552)
    02-05-2007 5:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 128 by anastasia
    02-04-2007 4:08 PM


    Re: Empathy does not equal Good
    Oh, no. We don't share the same morals, but we certainly share morality. Our morals amount to our individual and collective best-guesses at what is 'right'. We can limit this to love for ourself, our family, and our tribe. You and Iceage have shown that morality did indeed exist amoung primitive and civilied ancient cultures, but a limited moral system which included only those toward whom we felt a kinship.

    you change the meaning of morals and what is considered a moral right in the middle of that paragraph, they arn't morals they are ethics anyway.

    becides you didn't answer my question, please show a morality people share, in all my time learning not one culture has shown the same morals in the same way as another has, they vary more than they are alike

    To be concrete in terms, a saint or a hero has reached a stage of greater union with 'better' than the average member of a society. This shows me that something exists to be utilized which is greater than us, but can be found internally in great perfection while the 'tribe' is still far behind in moral developement.

    hmm well better is reletive to the society, thats my point, there is no concrete 'better' that is universal it varies greatly from culture to culture
    as for saints and heroes, they are people who exemplify the ideal, it doesn't mean they really are better, they are just precieved to be.

    yes i agree that humans can think above even the cultural norms and rules and be better people, but i don't really see the bible as an example of this moral ideal, half of it is full of exclusionary laws and the other half has always set a conflicting view of what people were trying to present


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by anastasia, posted 02-04-2007 4:08 PM anastasia has not yet responded

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 491 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 135 of 184 (382577)
    02-05-2007 9:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 91 by anastasia
    01-31-2007 6:48 PM


    Re: We've relied on our survival drive all this time, is it still used?
    quote:
    For the umpteenth time, why are those promoting 'survival' here, so full of 'hate thy neighbor', make fun of thy neighbor, talk down to thy neighbor, mock thy neighbor, ridicule, get revenge on, accuse of ignorance, and feel superior to thy God-fearing neighbor?

    Because social interactions are incredibly complex, ana, despite you wanting it to be easy and simple to look at and understand.

    It isn't an either-or equation. Power is part of our survival phychology as well, as is in-group/out-group xenophobia type feelings.

    quote:
    I thought love was a 'natural' instinctual and/or learned behavior?

    It is both, that is correct. But so are lots and lots of other feelings and behaviors.

    quote:
    Please do not continue to ignore the fact that we have the ability to HATE, and please do not make HATRED out to be another acceptable survival tactic.

    It certainly can be.

    But all of this reply of yours is another attempt to avoid the issue.

    You wrote:

    And yes, 'love thy neighbor' is preached in many ancient religious texts, way before any behavior science tried to claim it was survival instinct. No one has to preach survival as if they were driving a mule. We already have plenty of natural selfishness driving our survival, and plenty of intelligence to make it work.

    You seems to me to be claiming that it is only selfishness that "drives survival", but that is not true. Empathy and cooperation also drive survival.

    Now, I do wish you would answer this question I keep asking:

    You wrote:

    quote:
    Sure, you have said that we have things which tell us right from wrong. You have scientifically proved this. The Bible also said we have these things, and the writers did not have to go to behvioral science class to find out.

    Yeah, and the answer the writers of the Bible give us is "Godidit."

    What now?

    How does that increase our understanding of anything at all?


    'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy

    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman

    "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
    - Ned Flanders


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 91 by anastasia, posted 01-31-2007 6:48 PM anastasia has not yet responded

      
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