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Author Topic:   Are we all descendants of Adam and Eve?
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 13 of 376 (706993)
09-20-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by faitheist
09-20-2013 3:57 AM


Re: Myths and Fairy Tales
faitheist writes:
A&E couldn't have been all races. A&E's descendants would have had to evolve, in 6,000 years.
Creationists do believe in extrememly rapid evolution from a "super-genome" which contained every possible characteristic. "All cats came from two cats" after the Flood and so on. I'm not clear on whether or not that was happening before the Flood - and if not, why not.
The races supposedly came from Noah's three sons, Shem (Semites), Ham (black folks and probably various shades of brown too) and Japheth (white "Aryan" supermen). I'm not clear on why that began only after the Flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by faitheist, posted 09-20-2013 3:57 AM faitheist has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(5)
Message 65 of 376 (709308)
10-24-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jaywill
10-24-2013 10:15 AM


Re: Not sure what's going on ...
jaywill writes:
Tell me. Why don't we elect a German Shepherd dog for president ?
They don't live to be thirty-five.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jaywill, posted 10-24-2013 10:15 AM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 376 (709439)
10-26-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jaywill
10-25-2013 4:53 PM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
I think abiogenesis in this proposed manner would be no less miraculous than God forming man from the dust of the ground and breathing the breath of life into his nostrils and man becomming a living soul.
Abiogenesis by some as yet undetermined mechanism is less miraculous because we are only looking at known processes which can be tested in the lab. Unless God can be tested on the lab bench and His methods tested and repeated by us, your scenario is necessarily more miraculous and less scientific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jaywill, posted 10-25-2013 4:53 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 10-26-2013 4:47 PM ringo has replied
 Message 95 by jaywill, posted 10-27-2013 11:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 376 (709497)
10-27-2013 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jaywill
10-26-2013 4:47 PM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
Are we diminished if our Creator has revealed some things to us that we might not yet be able to know UNLESS God had told us ?
You've gone off on a tangent. I was explaining why abiogenesis is not "miraculous".

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 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 10-26-2013 4:47 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 376 (709561)
10-28-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jaywill
10-27-2013 11:02 PM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
But you do not know for a scientific fact that there was not first human being.
It's as much a "scientific fact" as gravity or (micro)evolution; it's what all of the evidence points to. My point - again - which you keep ignoring, is that abiogenesis and (macro)evolution are scientific and "God did it" is not. You're welcome to throw science out the window if you want to. Just don't pretend that your non-science is science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jaywill, posted 10-27-2013 11:02 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jaywill, posted 10-28-2013 12:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 111 of 376 (709574)
10-28-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jaywill
10-28-2013 12:13 PM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
There is no science theory that compels me to have to acknowledge....
That's right. Science doesn't even make much of an effort to convince jaywill.
jaywill writes:
If you hold to common descent you have a adam of sorts.
It's a bit hard to pinpoint him, though. Was he a hairy knuckle-dragger or a few CCs of pond scum?
jaywill writes:
The white coated purely objective scientist is largely wishful thinking. Not totally so, but more so than a lot of you skeptic types would like to admit.
I'm the first one to agree that individual scientists are not perfect. I'm as skeptical about science as I am about anything else. Objectivity is not an individual endeavour; it requires peer review.

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 Message 108 by jaywill, posted 10-28-2013 12:13 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 131 of 376 (709681)
10-29-2013 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by jaywill
10-28-2013 5:20 PM


jaywill writes:
Considerations to Joseph's (the legal father) ancestral line and Mary's (the virgin mother's) ancestral line account for the discrepencies.
Your foot appears to be in your mouth up to the knee. If Mary was a virgin, Joseph's ancestry is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jaywill, posted 10-28-2013 5:20 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jaywill, posted 10-29-2013 12:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 376 (709687)
10-29-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by jaywill
10-29-2013 12:06 PM


jaywill writes:
ringo writes:
Your foot appears to be in your mouth up to the knee. If Mary was a virgin, Joseph's ancestry is irrelevant.
Explain why.
You first. If Joseph was not Jesus' father, why does his geneology have to be in the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jaywill, posted 10-29-2013 12:06 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jaywill, posted 10-29-2013 12:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 137 of 376 (709694)
10-29-2013 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jaywill
10-29-2013 12:19 PM


jaywill writes:
Why are the issues which make Joseph's ancestory irrelevant if Mary was a virgin ?
You keep asking for proof of negatives. If you claim that Joseph's ancestry is relevant to Jesus, the onus is on you to back up that claim.
How is Joseph's ancestry more significant to Jesus than Matthew's ancestry? Or Mark's? Or Luke's? Or John's? Or anybody else's?

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 Message 135 by jaywill, posted 10-29-2013 12:19 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 245 of 376 (710164)
11-02-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jaywill
11-02-2013 9:29 AM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
My entry into the discussion was mainly about Bible Study and Bible reasons for holding that an understanding of the Bible includes that Adam was the first man God created.
From a Bible study standpoint, the answer to the question is obvious: Yes, according to the story we are all descendents of Adam and Eve.
From a Bible study standpoint the question is a waste of time. It's like asking from a Treasure Island standpoint if Long John Silver was a pirate. Yes, he was.
From a reality standpoint there may be some value in discussing whether Long John Silver and Adam and Eve were real people or fictional characters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jaywill, posted 11-02-2013 9:29 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:22 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 260 of 376 (710234)
11-03-2013 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:22 AM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
The cataclysmic impact of this man's life and words on human history is exceedingly powerful.
Actually, the impact of people who believed in His life was substantial. So was the impact of Genghis Khan, who believed in other gods. So was the impact of Alexander, who believed in other gods.
The impact that people have does not necessarily reflect on the accuracy of their beliefs.
jaywill writes:
That's curious for someone finding the Bible a waste of time on various subjects
I've never said that the Bible was a waste of time. I said that it's a waste of time to discuss whether or not we are all descendents of Adam and Eve.
jaywill writes:
The New Testament doesn't read anything like Treasure Island. One is obviously a good story of fiction and the other is four biographies (three by eyewitnesses) of someone you'd be a fool to surmise never lived.
You've already demonstrated poor reading comprehension in this very post. I don't think I'll take your word for what "reads like" fiction and what doesn't.
And you'd be a fool to assume that the gospel writers actually lived just because their stories say they did. Treasure Island has exactly the same basis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:22 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 280 of 376 (710293)
11-04-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:20 PM


Re: First man?
jayill writes:
But then you'd be hard pressed to explain the whole rise of the Christian church from the Jewish nation in such a brief time.
The rise of cults in a short period of time is no unusual phenomenon. Often people are just itching to throw away their old beliefs and exchange them for new ones. That's a characteristic of belief versus knowledge.
Otherwise, you've really said nothing to address my post. Try again: The impact of people who believe in XYZ does not correlate to the truth value of those beliefs. Examples given: Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great. Their impact on the world does not prove their beliefs were accurate. Why does the impact of Jesus' followers suggest that their beliefs were accurate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:20 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 281 of 376 (710296)
11-04-2013 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Phat
11-04-2013 9:41 AM


Re: First man?
Phat writes:
And you wonder why we dont take your evidence seriously?
If you don't take evidence seriously, that's on you. It doesn't matter who is providing the evidence. It doesn't matter if his attitude is bad. Only the evidence matters.
Phat writes:
It would be the same as if we took phrenology seriously!!
That's a good example. Taking Adam and Eve seriously is very much like taking phrenology seriously. The True Believer will ignore all evidence in his efforts to take it seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 11-04-2013 9:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 324 of 376 (710609)
11-07-2013 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


jaywill writes:
I cannot detect anywhere in Genesis or elsewhere where it speaks of Adam and the clock stops and the reader is lifted up into some philosophic mythical realm in which Adam as history is made fuzzy.
How did you fail to detect the talking snake? There's nothing historically fuzzy about it. It couldn't read more like fiction if it had a flashing neon sign that said "Fiction! Fiction! Fiction!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 4:22 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by jar, posted 11-07-2013 11:11 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 328 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 2:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 332 of 376 (710668)
11-08-2013 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by jaywill
11-07-2013 2:36 PM


jaywill writes:
There is too much more realism and even technical detail in the five books of Moses to suspicion Moses of being too simple minded to realize the atypical characteristics of the account.
I agree that Moses (or whoever wrote the Pentateuch) wasn't simple-minded. I'm sure it never occurred to him (them) that anybody else would be simple-minded enough to take the talking snake literally.
And if they meant the Adam and Eve story to be taken literally, why did they "correct" it with the generic "man" in Genesis 1?
jaywill writes:
Why couldn't God cause a space - time warping object to enter the solar system doing weird things with the curvature of space and sunlight ?
Why do you find it necessary to suggest scientific explanations for miracles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 2:36 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by jaywill, posted 11-08-2013 1:29 PM ringo has replied

  
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