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Author Topic:   Kansas Insitution to sue about teaching science in science room.
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 68 (707646)
09-29-2013 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Coyote
09-29-2013 9:58 PM


The Amish and Mennonite have value though.
The Amish though produce much of value, furniture, great foods, fantastic furniture.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 09-29-2013 9:58 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 68 (707648)
09-29-2013 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
09-29-2013 5:18 PM


Re: Don't laugh at them
Remove dupe
Edited by NoNukes, : One post is enough

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 09-29-2013 5:18 PM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 68 (707649)
09-29-2013 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
09-29-2013 5:18 PM


Re: Don't laugh at them
Again, I see nothing in your rule that would make the complaint a violation of your rule 11 as long as the lawyer says he does not consider it frivolous.
I don't expect that you are familiar with the standard that would be applied so I'm not surprised that you don't see even an argument that the complaint is without merit.
But as a hint, if your standard were used, (i.e. the lawyer saying that the complaint is okay with him) no lawyer would ever be sanctioned under rule 11.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 09-29-2013 5:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 09-29-2013 11:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 68 (707652)
09-29-2013 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
09-29-2013 10:53 PM


Re: Don't laugh at them
Oh, I don't doubt that the lawyer could be sanctioned which simply supports the complaint and helps convince the complainants they were and are right.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 09-29-2013 10:53 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 4:06 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 35 of 68 (707662)
09-30-2013 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
09-29-2013 11:26 PM


re: YAOJR...
Jar writes:
Oh, I don't doubt that the lawyer could be sanctioned which simply supports the complaint and helps convince the complainants they were and are right.
You certainly appeared to express some doubt.
Jar writes:
I see nothing in your rule that would make the complaint a violation of your rule 11 as long as the lawyer says he does not consider it frivolous
I'm sure that you have some way to interpret your remarks so that saying the above does not express doubt. I'm also sure that it would be easier to get blood from a stone than to get any kind of explanation.
Jar writes:
the lawyer could be sanctioned which simply supports the complaint
And you believe that sanctioning the lawyer for filing an inadequate complaint actually supports the complaint? Perhaps if you were their lawyer, you'd attempt such a strategy. But a possible rule 11 sanction is dismissal of the complaint. In what way would that 'support the complaint'.
helps convince the complainants they were and are right.
As for convincing the complainants that they are right, the court is not responsible for the plaintiff's delusion about the law. After all losing the court case is also unlikely to convince the plaintiffs that they are wrong. So perhaps the judge should just rule in their favor so that the clients don't feel persecuted? Surely not.
Throw me some kind of bone here jar. Surely there is some way to find something rational in what you are posting.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 09-29-2013 11:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 8:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 68 (707669)
09-30-2013 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 4:06 AM


re: YAOJR...
I keep throwing you bones but you seem unable to see or catch them.
The complaint is basically that the government is forcing the schools to teach children that they should doubt their parents, ignore what they are taught and challenge truth.
Should the courts simply dismiss the case that is simply additional support that the complaint is true.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 4:06 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-30-2013 10:45 AM jar has replied
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 11:27 AM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 37 of 68 (707675)
09-30-2013 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
09-30-2013 8:48 AM


re: YAOJR...
The complaint is basically that the government is forcing the schools to teach children that they should doubt their parents, ignore what they are taught and challenge truth.
Well, that depends on the parents, doesn't it?
For example:
Angry Parent: [Teacher]! I heard you told my daughter that we’re homo sapiens!
Teacher: Yes, of course
Angry Parent: I take offense to that!
Teacher Why?
Angry Parent: Most people in the world identify as hetero sapiens, thank you very much. We don’t like being lumped together with f***!
Teacher: [Parent's name], it’s simply the scientific name for the human species.
Angry Parent: NO! Homo means f***! I can’t believe you’re teaching these students this s***!
However, there is no legal and certainly no constitutional bar to the government making students better-informed than their parents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 8:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 11:38 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 68 (707678)
09-30-2013 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
09-30-2013 8:48 AM


re: YAOJR...
The complaint is basically that the government is forcing the schools to teach children that they should doubt their parents, ignore what they are taught and challenge truth.
Then perhaps we are arguing about two different things. The 'complaint' is the legal paper filed in court and served on the opposing party to start the law suit, and not just a description of the disagreement. Inside of a complaint is a description of the harm being wrought (maybe this is what you are calling a complaint), the remedy being sought, and the legal basis supporting the claim for relief from the described harm.
The rules for the filing are described in the Federal Rules of Civil procedure. Your complaint can be dismissed for things as trivial as being in the wrong font or on the wrong sized paper, or failing to meet time limits or procedure for serving the other party.
The complaint can be inadequate for failing in any of those parts.
A request for relief is supposed to have a legal basis. Otherwise it should be dismissed (possibly with prejudice and sanctions). In this case, and IMO, that means at least a clue why this case isn't a loser just like every other similar case that has been lost at the appellate level.
Is it actually illegal to teach kids to doubt what their parents think? My dad thought that 'cold' was an positive quantity of something physical that was stored in ice rather than resulting from removal of heat energy. Was it actually illegal for my chemistry or physics teacher to teach me otherwise? Of course not.
So how is this request for relief different? Well obviously because the parents believe the subject matter involves something they do have a legal right to object to. However, this complaint fails to adequate describe why they parents are entitled to relief. We know what the parents don't like. Just like you know (now) that I don't like brussel sprouts.
Assuming the parents manage to avoid being dismissed under rule 2b6 and being sanctioned under rule 11, they will have an opportunity to file a more substantive brief. But this complaint risks having the case not even get that far.
Should the courts simply dismiss the case that is simply additional support that the complaint is true.
Nonsense. It may well support the conclusion that the plaintiff's have a bad case or a poor lawyer.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 8:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 11:46 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 68 (707679)
09-30-2013 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
09-30-2013 10:45 AM


re: YAOJR...
From your perspective that may well be true.
From their perspective you are sending their kids straight to hell.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-30-2013 10:45 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 11:40 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 68 (707680)
09-30-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
09-30-2013 11:38 AM


re: YAOJR...
From their perspective you are sending their kids straight to hell.
From which we should conclude what, jar?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 11:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 11:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 68 (707683)
09-30-2013 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 11:27 AM


re: YAOJR...
From your perspective all that might be true. But your perspective simply supports their position; the government is sending their kids to hell and the US along with it.
This is why the only solution I see is to let them have their own society, government, nation even.
Let them condemn their children to being uneducated, unemployable, illiterate; let the kids go with Faith Healing if that is what the parents decide is best, let them refuse to teach critical thinking, reality, morality, faith, and all the other things they want to avoid. Let them have their own stores, police, fire departments, doctors, schools, teachers, politicians.
We need to pity them, regret every child that dies needlessly, every child who is not educated to recognize honesty or reality, but do little more.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 11:27 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by onifre, posted 09-30-2013 12:59 PM jar has replied
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 1:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 68 (707684)
09-30-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 11:40 AM


re: YAOJR...
Conclude what I have been saying, what we see here daily.
The CCoi should be allowed to separate themselves from the rest of the world.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 11:40 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 1:05 PM jar has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 43 of 68 (707694)
09-30-2013 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
09-29-2013 9:47 PM


They have their own universities.
That many? Universities where they don't teach evolution or proper biology? Or proper geology?
I know of one maybe two, but not that many.
They have their own jobs.
What jobs?
No need to compete.
That's impossible.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 09-29-2013 9:47 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 09-30-2013 4:35 PM onifre has replied
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 8:59 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 44 of 68 (707696)
09-30-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
09-30-2013 11:46 AM


It's a form of child abuse
Let them condemn their children to being uneducated, unemployable, illiterate; let the kids go with Faith Healing if that is what the parents decide is best
What you're saying is we should do nothing while those parents commit child abuse. That's not the right thing to do at all. If parents are unfit to be parents then the state removes the child from those conditions.
This would be one of those conditions. Condemning an innocent child to being uneducated, unemployable, illiterate and go without medical attention is not something we should allow to happen. Thankfully that is not the case.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 11:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 09-30-2013 1:04 PM onifre has replied
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 4:18 PM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 68 (707697)
09-30-2013 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by onifre
09-30-2013 12:59 PM


Re: It's a form of child abuse
Society does not do the condemning, the parents do.
Yes, you may see it as child abuse but that is pretty much irrelevant.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by onifre, posted 09-30-2013 12:59 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by onifre, posted 09-30-2013 1:18 PM jar has replied

  
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