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Author Topic:   What if this forum was dominated by creationists?
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 1 of 86 (707661)
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


As an experiment, I recently joined a tech forum that was against what I believed in. Yeah, believe it or not there are tech forums that have endless debates not too dissimilar from the EvC debate.

The first thing I noticed was that members of this forum would write out very general and sensationalist statements that are just plain wrong. And it's not even my opinion. It's just a fact. I started engaging in a couple debates with them. One member wrote in all caps that the system I was speaking of did not work at all. I asked him to be more specific, and again in all caps he said the system did not work at all. So, for a third time, I asked him for specific examples of the said system not working and crashing. That message was deleted by a mod and I was banned for 3 days.

When I came back, I engaged in another conversation. It was obvious by this time that I was the only person that spoke with a voice of dissension. Same guy started making very general statements in all caps, and again I asked him to be more specific . I after 3 posts of this, I was banned for 10 days. Actually, I'm currently in the 10 days period. The moderator who banned me wrote a lengthy post arguing against what I said and then banned me. I'm guessing he didn't want me to respond.

I lurked a little bit and could not find any other post that was for what I was supporting. Seems like members of that forum are all one voice and that they are very uncomfortable with differing opinion.

Believe it or not, I lurk on here quite often. I'm a long time atheist and believer in evolution. Used to be a creationist but I grew out of it after I learned a few things in school.

That said, it is very easy to get carried away when pretty much everyone around you agrees with you. The forum I was speaking of is an extreme example of when the entire forum has been taken over by one side of the debate, and all voices of opposition are banned regularly.

Seeing how few creationists there are on here, is it possible that the good inhabitants of this place are slowly slipping down the rabbit hole?


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-30-2013 4:11 AM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 3 by ProtoTypical, posted 09-30-2013 8:37 AM yenmor has responded
 Message 4 by nwr, posted 09-30-2013 9:12 AM yenmor has responded
 Message 6 by Diomedes, posted 09-30-2013 12:30 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 09-30-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 10-03-2013 10:55 AM yenmor has not yet responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 5 of 86 (707688)
09-30-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
09-30-2013 9:12 AM


Well, it's not like I'm proposing a new scientific theory LOL.

Sorry, no link. I would like to keep a level of anonymity on here. I am an engineer and programmer. Given enough info, you will be able to figure out who I am.

I'm a young guy still trying to find a firm footing in this world. I know you're an established professional, so you have nothing to worry about. But guys like me get fired because of a single sentence on the internet, and that's the last thing I need. This is not to mention the fact that I live with another man, and I work in a somewhat homophobic profession.

Anyway, you don't have to look far for a forum that's been taken over by one side of the debate. Moose provided a link to one such site.

Don't you ever wonder if the same thing has happened to this place? We are, after all, the worst evaluator of ourselves. People with stinky breaths don't think they have stinky breaths. People who are ignorant rarely ever notice that they are ignorant. I think there's a study of it out somewhere... here.

PS - You live within driving distance from me. Is that you in the avatar? I'll say hi the next time I drive by your town. My job requires me to drive all over the state on occasion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by nwr, posted 09-30-2013 9:12 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 09-30-2013 1:11 PM yenmor has responded
 Message 41 by nwr, posted 10-01-2013 5:18 PM yenmor has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 8 of 86 (707692)
09-30-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ProtoTypical
09-30-2013 8:37 AM


Re: Come one come all
ProtoTypical writes:

I can see differences of opinion regarding what might or might not work regarding programs or technical problems...


You have no idea. I'm pretty sure it's the same in every profession, every field of human endeavor. That's how progress is made. One person or one group comes up with a method. Another comes up with another method. And another. Before long, we have dozens of "schools of thought" on the subject matter. Over time, these usually boil down to 2 or 3 major ones with the occasional oddballs.

In France for example, there are whole "schools of thought" on how to best eat oyster. You can occasionally see heated debates between oyster eaters on how to best prepare it.

Back in the old days before the internet, such debates would show up as books and academic papers. Now that we have the internet, everyone can chime in. The result is factions on the internet. And every once in a while, one such faction manages to capture an entire forum. This is when members of one faction has all the moderator positions and all voices of opposition are regularly piled on and even banned.

Regarding the tech forum I was banned from, I have no doubt that they meant no ill will to me. And that's the problem with one-minded group thinking. When you surround yourself only with voices you agree with, then it's very easy to see differing opinion as a personal attack.

I swear on my mother's grave, all I did was keep insisting for that guy that wrote everything in all caps to provide some specific examples to prove his point, which he continued to refuse. His last post before I got banned said that even if I proved him wrong he would still not change his mind. The message for explanation to why I was banned for 10 days was because I was attacking a member personally. Very clear symptom of group think and group monopoly of a forum space. All voices of opposition are considered personal attacks.

I haven't decided yet if this forum is slipping into this abyss I've been talking about. Since there are so few creationists on here... what do you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ProtoTypical, posted 09-30-2013 8:37 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Coyote, posted 09-30-2013 12:47 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Diomedes, posted 09-30-2013 12:54 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 14 by ProtoTypical, posted 09-30-2013 9:29 PM yenmor has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 12 of 86 (707705)
09-30-2013 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
09-30-2013 1:11 PM


I see. Sorry, but I don't really participate on forums that much. I have no idea what people's regular terms are on internet forums. And I generally use common terms instead of specialized terms. For example, why do I call myself a programmer instead of developer? The popular... mainstream word these days is developer. Well, because in the real world, when I say developer people think of land developer, like builder of houses. And why do I call my desktop apps programs? Because in the real world people think of apps as iPhone apps, aka games. In the real world, people have associated the word app with fun and games.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 09-30-2013 1:11 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 20 of 86 (707771)
10-01-2013 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by ProtoTypical
09-30-2013 9:29 PM


Re: Come one come all
ProtoTypical writes:

I would challenge you to go to Evolutionfairytale and try to engage in a debate.


No, thank you. I value my sanity. It took me 5 months to convince my boyfriend that creationism and religion were bullshit. For lack of a better term, he came from a white trash family. (I can use this term because he uses it to describe himself and his family). What comes with such a background? (1) Religious fundamentalism, (2) belief in miracles and creationism, (3) ignorance, (4) misplaced self-importance, and (5) ego in the extreme. To this day, his family still think I play video game all day because I do programming and engineering design data crunching for my company. Heck, they still think he is wasting his time going to college right now. Last time we visited them, his mom asked him how were things and he said classes have been hard, etc. She then said, and I quote, "why don't you drop those classes?" That raised a red flag in me. It was hard enough for us to get him full scholarship to his school. And this woman who never finished high school was trying to give advice... They think education is a waste of time and that professional work like lab work and stuff in the technical fields are easy... if only they are given a chance to work in such fields.

The point is dealing with people on his side of the family has given me a unique perspective on how people from such background think. I can only stand them for a little while before I start losing my mind. Creationists online have an eerie resemblance to these folks I've been talking about.

So, no thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ProtoTypical, posted 09-30-2013 9:29 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:58 AM yenmor has responded
 Message 26 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 11:00 AM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 47 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-02-2013 6:22 AM yenmor has not yet responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 27 of 86 (707816)
10-01-2013 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
10-01-2013 9:58 AM


Re: Come one come all
I'm sorry if that offended you. Normally I don't judge. And at no time did I even hint that I'm "smarter" than them. I'm just fortunate enough to have had been born into a different attitude in life.

To give you an idea. the mom is an alcoholic. Hasn't worked for 30 years. The dad is a mover and is always paranoid about the government taking away his guns and pitbull. They rent trailers and apartments, which they don't pay for half the time and get evicted. The 14 year old sister is refusing to go to school while the mom doesn't care and the dad is praising her decision. The 16 year old sister is pregnant. The parents kicked my boyfriend out when he was 15 because he was gay. And that's just the tip of the ice berg. Hint, there are scars on my boyfriend.

Just exactly how would you describe such a family?

I'm not an idiot. I'm not the smartest guy on the block either. I would describe myself as average. I'm just aware of my limitations. That might sound egoistic to you, which is fine.

Edit.

I know what I said ain't politically correct. It's easy for you to sit there and call me judgmental. You don't deal with folks like that directly.

And I'm not saying crazy folks only exist on the fundamentalist side. We have some pretty crazy folks here on this side as well. I used to be friend with this liberal guy who believed... let's just say he believes society should be more forgiving with murderers and rapists, as in he didn't believe in incarcerating them.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:58 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:39 PM yenmor has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 31 of 86 (707822)
10-01-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
10-01-2013 11:53 AM


Re: po white folks
What's a reformer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 11:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 12:16 PM yenmor has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 34 of 86 (707827)
10-01-2013 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
10-01-2013 12:16 PM


Re: po white folks
Oh. Never saw myself as anything except my boyfriend's boyfriend. Our anniversary is coming up soon here, and I totally forgot to reserve a restaurant. Damn, gotta do that today.

I get cranky thinking about his folks. Where the hell is the man-pride in his dad? If I had children and I couldn't provide properly for them, I'd be depressed as hell.

That's just half of his situation. His biological father is a millionaire. Owns a moving company. I know, it's something that came straight out of a drama series. His mom fooled around with a rich boy back when and then reality struck. The bio father came to see him once when he was little. Again, where the hell is the man-pride? I would be depressed as hell knowing I got a kid out there that was homeless when he was 15, especially when I'm living in a mansion and have my own moving company.

Anyway, I also get cranky when people call me judgmental. They have no idea that when I say what I say, it's literal and not a put down. It's not me exaggerating or calling them names. It's exactly how it is literally.

The last time we visited them, his mom, while drunk, asked us which one of us is the woman and which one is the man. Yeah...

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 12:16 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 35 of 86 (707830)
10-01-2013 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
10-01-2013 12:27 PM


Re: po white folks
CS writes:

Wait, aren't you a Protestant?


If protestants are reformers, what are catholics? Non-reformers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-01-2013 12:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 39 of 86 (707841)
10-01-2013 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
10-01-2013 12:56 PM


Re: po white folks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-01-2013 12:56 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 42 of 86 (707889)
10-01-2013 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by nwr
10-01-2013 5:18 PM


Haha, that was a joke. I hope you didn't take offense to it. Between the two of us, I bet I look more like that squirrel than you do... slanted eyes and all...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by nwr, posted 10-01-2013 5:18 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 45 of 86 (707906)
10-02-2013 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
10-01-2013 9:39 PM


Re: Come one come all
NoNukes writes:

Yes, you did suggest they were morons for not knowing what you know.


You're right. Good job winning the argument! Wow, you are such a smart and intelligent debater. When I grow up, I want to be just like you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:39 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2013 5:19 PM yenmor has responded
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 10-03-2013 7:55 PM yenmor has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 50 of 86 (707971)
10-03-2013 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
10-02-2013 5:19 PM


Re: Come one come all
Take it as a compliment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2013 5:19 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 53 of 86 (708013)
10-03-2013 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Stile
10-03-2013 11:05 AM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
I wasn't going to get in a debate with political correctness Nazis, but what the hell.

Here is why my 2 statements can coexist together.

I have a lot of flaws. I admit that. I'm also not the brightest kid on the block. Again, I admit that. That's what knowing my limitations are. And by trying my best to watch for my limitations, flaws, etc., I hope to not have misplaced confidence. I try my best to not have misplaced confidence. At the same time, I know my capabilities as well. Got my undergraduate degree in physics and masters in engineering. I'm a full time engineer in the Chicago area and a part-time/hobbyist computer programmer. Not the best one on the block, but just barely good enough.

And at age 30, I'm balding... grrrr.....

When I say those people are white trash, you have no idea how well they fit into that category.

When my boyfriend was 15, his parents kicked him out into the streets beause he was gay. Nowadays, the father tries to reconcile that by saying he was only trying make his son a man. One of his sisters just gave birth to a baby girl. We went to visit her at the hospital last night. She's 16. The youngest sister has dropped out of school at age 15. The mom is not doing anything about it, because she is drunk all the time. Heck, she was drunk last night at the hospital when we went to see the sister and the new baby. Don't know how she got into the hospital like that. The dad actually embraced it, because he thought schools were for brainwashing kids.

They are creationists, believing in the literal creation stories.

They are very religious, attributing everything to god.

And about 7 months ago, they got kicked out of the house they were renting because he hadn't paid the bills for months. Funny how he was one of those that rushed out and bought a whole bunch of guns and ammo because Obama was going to take his guns away but he didn't have the money to pay rent.

And he's gotta keep that pitbull of his.

2 years ago, he hurt his back at work as a mover. He sued the company and got about $150k out of it. He immediately went out and spent most of that money on an expensive luxury sport car, which he eventually lost anyway. So, 2 years ago he had $150k cash and 7 months ago the family became homeless. He took his youngest daughter to live with his brother. His wife lived in a homeless shelter. And the pregnant daughter went to live with the father of the baby. By the way, now that the baby is born, the grandparents on the other side are demanding they have a paternity test.

The father isn't working, because he's been blacklisted by moving companies for having sued and won a case. Last I heard, he and his daughter will be kicked out of his brother's place soon for doing nothing but drinking all day.

And he's gotta have his guns and pitbull, because Obama was coming to take them away anytime now.

To this day, I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night finding my boyfriend crying in his sleep. I have a friend who is a psychologist that works in the prison reform system. I consulted him once and he said he thinks my boyfriend is suffering from repressed childhood memories. Hint: There are scars on my boyfriend's body.

So, how exactly would you describe such a family? Am I not allowed to call them a white trash family? I got that term from my boyfriend. He uses it to describe himself and his family. He currently goes to college for dentistry on full scholarship. We worked really hard to get him that scholarship. He'll be the first person in his extended family to get a college degree. In the mean time, he still cries in his sleep.

Added by edit.

And god bless you if you are a liberal commie who believes all lifestyles should be embraced, including the one I just described to you. In that sense, yes I am unfairly judging them.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Stile, posted 10-03-2013 11:05 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Stile, posted 10-03-2013 2:27 PM yenmor has responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 55 of 86 (708019)
10-03-2013 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Stile
10-03-2013 2:27 PM


Re: How do these ideas co-exist?
One of several things could be going on here. You could be quote-mining, misreading, or just plain wanting to pick a fight. I'm not sure what yet.

Stile writes:

On one hand you seem to claim that people are the worst evaluators of themselves... it is difficult for us to determine if we're being objective or not. It is difficult to identify when we're wrong. This seems very reasonable and mature.

On the other hand, you seem to claim that when you describe something... it's "exactly literal" and not judgemental in any way.


No, I did not. I was referring to that specific instance of my description of that family.

Not all my descriptions of anything are always correct. Like everyone else, I am not immune to misconceptions.

My question to you is why are those two things need to be mutually exclusive? Am I not ever allowed to list my qualifications on my resume just because I am the worst evaluator of myself? Is a doctor not allowed to call himself a doctor simply because for all he knows everything he knows about medicine could be a delusion?

You've presented a false dilemma of 2 extremes.

So, in this particular instance, do you think I am justified in calling that family white trash? That's the question. I wasn't claiming that all or even most my evaluations are always correct. In fact, I have no idea how you even got that impression from what I wrote.

So, which is this? Did you misread what I said? Did you quote-mine me? Are you just looking for someone to disagree? Are you just being politically correct? I'm trying to figure out where this is coming from.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Stile, posted 10-03-2013 2:27 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by 1.61803, posted 10-03-2013 6:17 PM yenmor has responded
 Message 67 by Stile, posted 10-04-2013 2:31 PM yenmor has responded

  
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