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Author Topic:   Is Dispensationalism a cult?
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 77 (739029)
10-19-2014 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
10-19-2014 4:07 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Because we are not to be as gods, for one thing.
Who said "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 10-19-2014 4:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 10-19-2014 6:15 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 47 of 77 (739047)
10-19-2014 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
10-19-2014 4:24 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
True, God allegedly said that. Note, however, that He prevented them from partaking of eternal life by a ban on the other tree. I say again: We (humans) are not meant to be as gods. The same reason Lucifer, upon having chosen to become satan, was booted out of heaven...A&E were booted out of the garden.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 10-19-2014 4:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 10-19-2014 6:20 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 77 (739049)
10-19-2014 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
10-19-2014 6:15 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Learn Phat.
Satan was booted out of heaven for refusing Gods wish he bow down and worship man.
Yes, they were thrown out of the Garden of Eden because God feared they would eat the the Tree of Life. But they had gained the capability to judge right and wrong just as the God character.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 10-19-2014 6:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 9:19 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 49 of 77 (739247)
10-22-2014 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
10-19-2014 6:20 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
jar writes:
Satan was booted out of heaven for refusing Gods wish he bow down and worship man.
And yet God never directly created an evil satan. Satan chose to rebel.
But they had gained the capability to judge right and wrong just as the God character.
And so I agree that we are charged and are responsible. What is less clear to me is our conversations with the "God character" in our minds. Do we simply consider Him to big to talk to? Do we correct Him? If so, the only reason I could see why is that God wants us to strive for following the "right thing to do." It takes a perfect God to instill right and wrong into human consciousness.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 10-19-2014 6:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 9:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 51 by jar, posted 10-22-2014 9:38 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 50 of 77 (739251)
10-22-2014 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
10-22-2014 9:19 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Satan chose to rebel.
So your god is not omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent.
What a wuss.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 9:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 10:20 AM Theodoric has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 77 (739252)
10-22-2014 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
10-22-2014 9:19 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
It takes a perfect God to instill right and wrong into human consciousness.
But such a thing simply does not exist.
What we have is just what a God has, the ability to think about what is right and wrong. In most cases there simply is no correct answer.
Thou shalt not kill. But what if killing someone would save your family?
Thou shalt not steal. But what if stealing food is the only way to feed your family?
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors ass. But what if your neighbor is tall and tan and young and lovely?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 9:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 10:19 AM jar has replied
 Message 58 by GDR, posted 10-22-2014 2:34 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 52 of 77 (739260)
10-22-2014 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
10-22-2014 9:38 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
jar writes:
What we have is just what a God has, the ability to think about what is right and wrong. In most cases there simply is no correct answer.
Thou shalt not kill. But what if killing someone would save your family?
Thou shalt not steal. But what if stealing food is the only way to feed your family?
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors ass. But what if your neighbor is tall and tan and young and lovely?
And so God gives us grace, but does not want us to use grace as an excuse or license to do whatever we want. We still have a conscience and the gift of knowing right and wrong. Some would say it is our will and our responsibility to be disciplined. Others would say that it is His will in communion with our will and that it is still our responsibility to take up Lacrosse and follow Him. The key, I think, is in denying ourselves. It ain't easy.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 10-22-2014 9:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 10-22-2014 12:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 53 of 77 (739261)
10-22-2014 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
10-22-2014 9:31 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
How do you come to that conclusion? God never forces Himself on anyone. How is that being a wuss?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 9:31 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 10:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 54 of 77 (739262)
10-22-2014 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
10-22-2014 10:20 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
So he knew Satan would rebel?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 10:20 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 10:28 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 55 of 77 (739263)
10-22-2014 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Theodoric
10-22-2014 10:27 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
So he knew Satan would rebel?
Yes I am assuming so. Perhaps the rebellion was allowed only to allow the possibility of future choice between two options.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 10:27 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 1:01 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 56 of 77 (739274)
10-22-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
10-22-2014 10:19 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
And so God gives us grace, but does not want us to use grace as an excuse or license to do whatever we want.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
We do not know that God will give us grace but believe that if we are forgiven it will be by God's grace and not our own.
Note "if".
Those who think they are saved or forgiven are putting the cart before the horse. They need to wait until after they are judged to work that out.
But that is not comforting.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 10:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 57 of 77 (739284)
10-22-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
10-22-2014 10:28 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Perhaps the rebellion was allowed only to allow the possibility of future choice between two options.
But if he is omniscient he knows what choices would be made in the future, so it isn't really much of a choice is it.
If he is omnipotent and omnipresent then he was just setting satan up.
In other words he sounds like an evil dick. Not anything worthy of worship.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 10:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 4:04 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 10-23-2014 1:35 PM Theodoric has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 58 of 77 (739306)
10-22-2014 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
10-22-2014 9:38 AM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
jar writes:
What we have is just what a God has, the ability to think about what is right and wrong. In most cases there simply is no correct answer.
Thou shalt not kill. But what if killing someone would save your family?
Thou shalt not steal. But what if stealing food is the only way to feed your family?
That all plays back into legalism and the idea that if we follow the various laws that we can get what we want from God, whether it be in this life or the next.
Jesus and Paul for that matter made it clear that it is all about the heart. Do we do the right thing simply because we know it is the right thing and that is what our heart desires.
That is one reason, (other than the fact that I think it is bad theology), that the whole argument about dispensationalism bothers me. It is essentially trying to figure out what we have to do to get in good with God, which is completely contrary to what Jesus espoused.
Interestingly enough from a Christian point of view, it is similar to the OT Jews. They were constantly trying to figure out, when and what it would look like when the messiah came to them. In the end none of them got it until the resurrection and even then most of them missed it.
The point is, is that we should be considering how we can image God and reflect His love into His creation which includes people, other life forms and the planet itself. We should stop worrying about judging who is in and who is on the outs with God and trust in His perfect judgement. (That is scriptural.)
BTW I don't see that I'm disagreeing with you, it is just a comment.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 10-22-2014 9:38 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 59 of 77 (739315)
10-22-2014 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
10-22-2014 1:01 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
Thats also what Lucifer concluded as he chose to become satan.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 1:01 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 11:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 1:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 60 of 77 (739344)
10-22-2014 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
10-22-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Whose Will Is It, Anyway?
So your god is a dick?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 4:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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