|
QuickSearch
Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ] |
EvC Forum active members: 61 (9027 total) |
| |
JustTheFacts | |
Total: 883,421 Year: 1,067/14,102 Month: 59/411 Week: 80/168 Day: 9/19 Hour: 3/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The not so distant star light problem | |||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Now that that's cleared up let's return to the tangential argument we were having because, it's fun.
Thanks for the clarification. We are left with a side effect from the core. So by the operation of some other laws that existed during creation the core was the source of light but not the way it is at present. When we look at the sun, the light we see came from the core but not in the manner it does at present. Before answering this let me state that now the goal posts are shifting in the sense that God is no longer operating supernaturally. Supernaturalism would be God operating by the sheer power of his will where he is not bound by any law but is rather the source of all law. So now we have a scenario where God is more like us and exists within some framework of laws different from our own by which he is bound and in accordance with which he has to act but those actions are not limited by our laws which offer no constraints upon what he may choose to do in our realm. So I would lay the supernatural argument to rest at this point with the following argument: quote: If I get to hold onto the short length of time within which this creation took place: Suppose there are two realms and two sets of laws of physics. There is our realm and that for God. In Gods realm the evolution of the sun can take place very quickly but in ours the process runs slower. How do you transition from one realm to the other? Our only constraint is the boundary condition that the sun be in its current steady state condition about 6,000 years ago. It happens faster in that realm where God operates and then it is transitioned here into our slower realm. This could be a smooth transition (the trajectory to the origin is tangent to the axis of the reals at the origin.)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Supernaturalism. YECs need to end it there. Trying to mix it with reasonable sounding explanations adds nothing to the argument and only weakens it. There is an inherent incompatibility between mixing supernaturalism with naturalism unless one accepts the premise that God sustains everything. Then there is no conflict since false evidence that contradicts the narrative is a possibility. Then nothing can be inferred from the evidence and nothing is explainable. It is the rabbit hole down which fundies are forced to retreat.
I'm more than aware that YECs are capable of relying upon supernaturalism to avoid abandoning the narrative. I had a discussion with one where I used the fact that the brain being a neural net requires time and experiences to learn. I thought this a good argument against a *poofed* Adam. Instead the YEC accepted it as proof that Adam was created with false memories. With respect to whether the sun argument has merit in persuading a YEC to reconsider their stance, my feeling is that if it helps just one person it has some value. YECs aren't moved by the solid arguments of radioisotope dating methods because they don't understand them. What are more helpful are examples that are basic and easy to comprehend, tree rings, the slow conveyor belt of photons from the core to the suns surface, the existence of ice sheets with their ice core samples that didn't have time to form since the 'global flood', etc. I wish I could come up with a solid argument to disprove last thursdayism. But maybe this one is good enough:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I'd have to call that a rather unconventional requirement. If God used an earthquake to cause the Red Sea to back up at exactly the proper time, then according to your definition, God's use of an earthquake would render the saving of the Hebrews from Pharoah's army non-supernatural. I don't accept your requirement, and I suspect that few on either side of the debate would. I think the rest of your post is based on your definition. I won't comment further. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Come on NoNukes, you know this wouldn't change a thing. How did he cause the earthquake? Did you never play the board game mousetrap as a child? Feel free to reject the definition and offer one or two of your own. Just so long as we can nail down the woo before declaring victory in an argument where it is being casually sloshed about. I don't really care if I'm proven wrong here. This was not what my thread was about. I am not in disagreement with you that fundies can blame it on supernaturalism. What I am interested in is the notion that conclusions about woo can be arrived at at all. It's called woo for a reason.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I don't understand what you want here. I'm not advocating using supernatural explanations of anything.
Using supernatural means of course. I don't see any point to changing the definition of the term supernatural to forbid the use of anything natural. Why don't you simply ignore all conversations about the supernatural? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
I'm aware of that.
What I am saying is that there isn't a workable/useful definition. At least not one that can be used for any "intelligible" discussion. We are not having a debate, we were having the illusion of a debate. This was a side discussion. The OP was about the pseudo-science rather than the supernatural per se.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Come ye and hear the parable of the YECs. Unto what shall I liken them?
They are like unto children playing make believe. YEC: Pretend you could flap your arms and fly. Then I could go visit my cousin in New Zealand.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
xongsmith Member Posts: 2012 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
Help me, but I feel I am falling back....
Look at the ancient thread here: Message 262 It went on for eons. One of the best times i've ever had. - xongsmith, 5.7d
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Imagine the fun if they added a Neuroscience section to this board.
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/ns02.htm Looking at some of these threads I'm seeing this vision in my mind of brains on platters responding to one another in a fashion not unlike frogs on lily pads down at the lake's edge croaking randomly and in response to one another.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 5586 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
You mean like this?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
You captured Oni and Straggler
Normal Thread: Edited by shalamabobbi, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
PlanManStan Member (Idle past 2477 days) Posts: 73 Joined: |
I will attempt to take on the role of a Young-Earth Creationist. Excuse me why I get in to character..."Thereisagodthereisagodthereisagodscienceiswrongscienceiswrongscienceiswrong". Phew, ready! Now, where to begin. First of all, I will choose to disregard your science and point you to an ambiguous verse in the Bible.
(sorry if this is offensive)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Ah, a tease.
Another problem for YECs with respect to the sun is its metallization. It is a population I star and has heavy elements (as well as H and He) created and spewed into space from previous population II stars which in turn were preceded by population III stars which contained no heavy elements. Why did God sprinkle the sun with useless heavy elements if it was designed and built rather than a natural formation? Why did he put so much Helium in it rather than simply use Hydrogen? It's from the amount of Helium in the sun that we infer its age. This is for the YECs that argue that we haven't found any population III stars yet and with that toss astronomy/cosmology under the bus. And this will provide the data that will remove another straw clutched by the YECs.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
How do you get a solar system without some heavy elements? Seriously, isn't this question only meaningful when posed to the few YECs who believe in the scientific hypotheses about planet formation? By my count that's about 8 people on earth.
I think this is a much better conundrum that the one in the OP for this thread. I suspect that the YEC answer would be some version of last Thursdayism. Adam was created allegedly created as a fully grown adult, and the sun was created similarly mature because a middle age sun works better than those newly created, barely stable ones. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 1639 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Hey NN,
We've been traveling during quarter break and are back now.
Yes, and I am corresponding with one of them now, Kent Hovind. Back and forth about once a week though we are not currently debating anything. Just trying to get him interested in posting on the forum. He may not have much keyboard time allotted each 24hrs. I asked about that in my last email. I guess the idea is since for a YEC the solar system is not a naturally formed thing the question arises as to why the inclusion of heavier elements in the creation of the sun? We have to think about the creation of elements from a YEC perspective as "Let there be O, N, Fe, etc". Maybe a nit but an interesting one. Creation of a middle aged sun is one thing, but creation of a sun that appears to be the product of the debris of former stars is something else. Like I stated before every little bit helps, for some at least. One more thing to ponder.
This would likely be a reasonable explanation for a creationist, which returns us to the significance of the metals that tell the tale of natural formation rather than creationism. Why the existence of these different kinds of stars? Population I, like the sun, with the most metallicity, earlier generation population II with less metallicity, and finally population III stars with no metallicity? So now the YEC theory is not just the creation of things with the appearance of age, but the creation of things with the appearance of natural formation from previous things of even greater age that no longer even exist when 'creation' took place. Quite a convoluted theory it would seem.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021