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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 46 of 305 (711079)
11-14-2013 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by RAZD
11-14-2013 10:29 PM


Re: Great Debate Message 15 and Message 16
I'll be joining this thread as the Great Debate is pretty much done. At least I'm not participating there until there is some rationality on the other side.

Somehow I had hoped for better.

Silly me.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 11-14-2013 10:29 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 51 of 305 (711107)
11-15-2013 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
11-15-2013 8:30 AM


I think Coyote should return to the thread and not worry about Mindspawn ever getting it, just provide correct information and untangle any misunderstandings that might confuse others.

I specifically started that thread to deal with radiocarbon dating, not useless rabbit holes.

I specifically stated in the OP that I wanted to restrict posts to established science, not useless "what-ifs."

That is all Mindspawn is presenting now. I'm not interested.

If he wants to discuss radiocarbon dating I'll return to the thread.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 11-15-2013 8:30 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 8:43 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 55 of 305 (711116)
11-15-2013 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by RAZD
11-15-2013 8:43 AM


Re: tag-team?
RAZD, sure, that would be good.

I'm willing to discuss radiocarbon dating, but there are just too many side topics being thrown out with no evidence and I have neither the time nor the patience for those.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 8:43 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 3:37 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 73 of 305 (711329)
11-17-2013 2:35 PM


Hah!
Hah!

RAZD you didn't consider the effects of rainfall on those corals!

See, that's proof of a young earth.

/mindspun mode


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 74 of 305 (711345)
11-17-2013 6:16 PM


Magnificent
RAZD, your Message 23 in the Great Debate thread is magnificent!

I wish I had the patience to do that.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 77 of 305 (711356)
11-17-2013 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by NoNukes
11-17-2013 9:51 PM


Early summary?
I thought Mindspawn might become convinced that varve layers are predominantly annual if ...

Hope springs eternal in the human breast, I guess.

My assessment of the situation is that Mindspawn cannot accept radiometric dating, or the results it produces, under any circumstances, because if he were to do so his entire world view would be compromised.

This is why he has to find objections to all of these dating methods--that allows him to keep his world view intact.

It doesn't matter that those objections are outlandish, or contradicted by a massive amount of evidence. That he is able to produce those objections is sufficient for his purposes. Just doing so lets him maintain his beliefs.

I suspect that the magnificent post that RAZD did in the Great Debate thread will get nowhere. The points he raised will be ignored, denied, or obfuscated, or just drowned under an onslaught of "what-ifs" without any supporting evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 11-17-2013 9:51 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 86 of 305 (711433)
11-18-2013 8:04 PM


Magnificent, again!
Another magnificent post by RAZD.

Message 25

Now we'll see if Mindspawn wants to discuss radiocarbon dating, continue on with more rabbit holes and what-ifs, or makes himself scarce.

If the former, I'll be happy to rejoin that thread.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 90 of 305 (711466)
11-19-2013 9:59 AM


In two replies Mindspun has failed to lay a glove on RAZD.

His posts are a long on speculation and wishful thinking and short on evidence. Particularly, they are short on evidence that would contradict what RAZD has posted. He has nothing but "what-ifs" as usual.

Speculating on what rainfall may or may not have done is no substitute for explaining some reason why all of those different materials show the same patterns, which together make up the calibration curve.


Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Diomedes, posted 11-19-2013 3:23 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 95 of 305 (711519)
11-19-2013 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by NoNukes
11-19-2013 9:44 PM


Today's posts...
NoNukes writes:

JonF writes:

Bottom line: Mindie far prefers making up to finding out. All this is available in fifteen minutes of reading his own references and simple Googling. But he wants everything handed to him on a silver platter.

Exactly. Why in the world is it legitimate to simply make up stuff about decay rates (or any other fanciful thing) and to then require that your opponent actually serve up contrary references.

The debate is over. Who cares whether mindspawn ever admits it.

Aye, there's the rub.

Folks who base their beliefs on the bible or other ancient tribal myths are not amenable to evidence.

Those folks literally can't bring themselves to accept evidence, no matter how sound it may be, that contradicts their world view. They won't search for it on the web, and wouldn't accept it if they found it. They would keep searching the web until they found something--anything!--that would provide the slightest ray of hope so that they could maintain their beliefs. And, as we have seen, without the knowledge of science or the scientific method, those slight "rays of hope" just let them fool themselves.

We see this very clearly in Mindspawn's posts today. Overwhelmed by evidence that shows his opinions and beliefs to be wrong, he complains about the length of RAZD's evidence-laden posts and resorts to nitpicking inconsequential details. He just can't accept that his beliefs are disproved.

This is the creation "science" that the same folks want in schools and schoolbooks today.

Heinlein was right (as usual):

Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 11-19-2013 9:44 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2013 10:23 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 97 of 305 (711521)
11-19-2013 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2013 10:23 PM


Re: Today's posts...
I'm familiar with that quote.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks today don't take it to heart.

I think the good Saint, when faced with Mindspawn's arguments, would just give himself a facepalm and shake his head in disbelief.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2013 10:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2013 10:32 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 101 of 305 (711530)
11-19-2013 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2013 10:48 PM


Re: Focus may be the key
I was expecting a debate on the radiocarbon method, not Japanese geology and other arcane subjects.

But Mindspawn didn't even know the difference between corroboration and calibration.

He thought (and I'm sure still thinks) that we need tree rings to validate the radiocarbon method. That is just a side effect. Tree ring calibration was originally designed to provide a method to correct for atmospheric fluctuations in C14 levels so as to make the results of radiocarbon dating slightly more accurate.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2013 10:48 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 114 of 305 (711633)
11-20-2013 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by NoNukes
11-20-2013 9:02 PM


Re: What makes NoNukes testy.
So why should talk about cherry picking or 11 rings in a year even be listened to until at least a minimum amount of supposition has been raised?

That figure, 11 or 12 rings a year, is what is needed for Mindspun to dismiss radiocarbon dating -- in his own mind -- as inaccurate.

He really is not trying to convince us as much as he is trying to convince himself. He has to find some flaw with radiocarbon dating somewhere or his whole world view comes crashing down about his ankles.

And he is willing to settle for a very low threshold of evidence because it is only himself that he is really addressing, and he needs it so much.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 11-20-2013 9:02 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 11-21-2013 9:20 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 130 of 305 (711850)
11-22-2013 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by xongsmith
11-22-2013 9:08 PM


Re: skeptical about this...
Nonsense.

Ignore it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by xongsmith, posted 11-22-2013 9:08 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 145 of 305 (712052)
11-26-2013 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Percy
11-26-2013 10:41 AM


Mind like a steel trap... Rusted shut
Mindspawn doesn't need to know all that stuff. He knows it is all wrong, so what's the point?

And no matter what evidence RAZD presents, it's all wrong too.

This really demonstrates Heinlein's comment, "Belief gets in the way of learning."


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 11-26-2013 10:41 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 11-26-2013 1:47 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 153 of 305 (712191)
11-28-2013 2:02 PM


Corroboration vs. calibration
Did I correctly read that RAZD post from earlier today which discussed radiocarbon dating materials from the Egyptian Old Kingdom?

If I read correctly, the ages they obtained were uncalibrated, and still agreed closely with the Egyptian chronology.

It means that the radiocarbon method has been found to be reasonably accurate back well over 4,000 years without ever bringing up the issue of calibration.

That also means the entire discussion of calibration has been unnecessary.

So far Mindspawn has wasted all of his time (and ours) dealing with calibration, which just adjusts the radiocarbon ages by a small percentage to account for atmospheric fluctuation in C14 levels. He hasn't laid a glove on the radiocarbon method and its underlying principles.

I think in reality that Mindspawn didn't know the difference between "corroboration" and "calibration."

Conventional radiocarbon ages are calibrated to account for atmospheric fluctuation. This corrects the radiocarbon age by a small percentage.

And in the paper RAZD cited the uncalibrated radiocarbon ages were corroborated as they correctly determined the ages of the artifacts and materials with known historical dates from the Old Kingdom. This served to verify the accuracy of the method independent of any calibration.

(The tree-rings and other items that make up the calibration curve also have the side effect of corroborating the radiocarbon ages, but Mindspawn thinks the calibration curve's all phoney, so we'll ignore it for the moment.)

Edited by Coyote, : grammar


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle


Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 11-28-2013 2:48 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 156 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2013 8:19 PM Coyote has responded

  
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