Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (9005 total)
53 online now:
Aussie, Hyroglyphx, jar, PaulK, vimesey (5 members, 48 visitors)
Newest Member: kanthesh
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 881,038 Year: 12,786/23,288 Month: 511/1,527 Week: 190/207 Day: 12/39 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Topic abandonment warning (read and/or suffer the consequences)


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 305 (710896)
11-12-2013 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Diomedes
11-11-2013 10:20 PM


Re: Great Debate Message 4 and Correlations
Coyote pretty much just performed a first round knockout.

I don't think such a thing is possible. I think he has forgone an opportunity to kick the spring tide theory squarely into the trash can.

But then it does matter what you consider winning. In a Great Debate I think the minimal achievement is to get your opponent to acknowledge he has a weak argument. It appears to me that Coyote is simply inviting mindspawn to postulate silly scenarios about radiometric dating.

All dating methods have attack points, and the C-14 attack points are more accessible to the novice than are those of other methods. It is the agreement with non-radiometric dating methods and other dating methods that closes out all of the what ifs.

If Mindspawn thinks that there are spring tides of salt water in that lake, he ought to be made to provide some evidence.

The real obstacle is this debate is that mindspawn will not hold up his end. He is not going to show the math (or the evidence) that demonstrates that he any scenario he proposes actually happened. He believes that expressing personal doubt is sufficient for him, but not for his opponent.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Diomedes, posted 11-11-2013 10:20 PM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Diomedes, posted 11-12-2013 11:57 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 305 (710897)
11-12-2013 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
11-12-2013 7:50 AM


Re: Great Debate Message 4 and Correlations
The graph *does* indicate about 1.2 varve layers per year on average.

If I understand your comment, I think you are saying that that the graph indicates that relation between C-14 years and varve years. The assumption is that varve years correspond more closely than C-14 years to actual years.

And perhaps that is the source of mindspawn's error. He must think that actual dates are one of the axes on the graphs.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 11-12-2013 7:50 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 11-12-2013 12:53 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 305 (710910)
11-12-2013 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Diomedes
11-12-2013 11:57 AM


Re: Great Debate Message 4 and Correlations
I have yet to see any debate of this nature where the creationist actually produced proper, peer reviewed information that was not in any way outright fabricated or based on incorrect assertions.

We've seen the occasional Creationist poster do much better than that on some topics. I though the Creationist debating whale evolution (Adam something or other?) did a good job of holding up his end.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Diomedes, posted 11-12-2013 11:57 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Granny Magda, posted 11-12-2013 2:06 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 305 (710979)
11-13-2013 2:52 PM


Mindspawn's goals for the discussion are completely different from Coyote's. Mindspawn wins in his estimation if he keeps his YEC beliefs intact. He does not have to prove that scientists are complete idiots and have never considered and ruled out the objections he raises. Spawny simply has to raise his doubts and deny any counter arguments.

Maybe mindspawn will surprise me. I have to admit that I was completely shocked when he gave up on his neutron alters decay Uranium decay rates argument in response to a single scientist telling him it would not work.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 305 (710980)
11-13-2013 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by JonF
11-13-2013 12:26 PM


Maybe mindie doesn't understand that the correlation with other methods is not an integral part of the 14C dating method.

I think that's a tough argument to make. I would not rely on it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by JonF, posted 11-13-2013 12:26 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 305 (710981)
11-13-2013 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Diomedes
11-13-2013 9:47 AM


Re: Look at this doozy
Doesn't that in and of itself really showcase the absurdity of this debate?

He's not making that argument.

Mindspawn is referring to the agreement of C-14 dating with tree rings. His proposal is that scientists are mistakenly identifying some rainfall induced tree rings with annual rings.

Spawnhead thinks that varves are expected by spring tides, and tree rings counts are affected by rain. So, I wonder how he explains the extremely tight correspondence between the two. The correspondence is actually much better than uncalibrated C-14 data and either of the aforementioned non-radiometric indications. That's the kind of info he should be slammed with, because the conformance pretty much proves that his objection is absolutely wrong.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Diomedes, posted 11-13-2013 9:47 AM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Diomedes, posted 11-13-2013 3:27 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 32 by RAZD, posted 11-13-2013 8:50 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 305 (710986)
11-13-2013 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Diomedes
11-13-2013 3:27 PM


Re: Look at this doozy
Mindspawn's original objection to C-14 as a reliable dating method was that they leveraged what he considers unreliable ancillary calibration methods; i.e. tree rings, lake varves, etc.

Coyote responded by saying: Ok, if you have issue with those calibration methods, let us remove them and focus on the C-14 dating mechanism itself. He then produced a graph showing C-14 decay rates over a particular timeframe, representing the half life decay of the isotope. Mindspawn responded by going back to the tree rings and lake varves.

Yes, but his mistake is not following what Coyote has done. That's a bit easier to forgive than linking rain fall to decay rates.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Diomedes, posted 11-13-2013 3:27 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 305 (711019)
11-14-2013 9:27 AM


Spring tides
Has any ever told this buffoon that there are two spring tides per month rather than just one? Mindspawn thinks he needs to explain a factor of 11 or 12 for some reason.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by JonF, posted 11-14-2013 10:52 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 305 (711020)
11-14-2013 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by RAZD
11-14-2013 8:51 AM


Re: Great Debate Message 9 and correlations again
Rather obviously, to me, mindspawn does not really understand how dendrochronology works and so he is clutching to a straw argument.

That's pretty much his approach to everything. From neutrons affecting decay rates, to a world wide flood that might be, to carbon fourteen dating. No conscience at all.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by RAZD, posted 11-14-2013 8:51 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 305 (711064)
11-14-2013 5:30 PM


Sigh...
The debate is going as I expected. Mindspring has raised the variability of C-14 formation in the atmosphere, which is pretty much the point to raise.

However, I note that he expects Coyote to rebut the effect of rainfall on tree rings, and if I'm correct varves. I don't believe he has established any such variation on varves.

I would recommend hammering mindspring with other radiometric data while making him do his homework on tree rings and varves. Of course he will then retreat to extrapolating from the tiny, unexplained variations in decay rates.

And the solution is to force mindspawn to explain why all variations seem to work in exactly the same direction and with the same magnitude and time dependence.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 48 of 305 (711103)
11-15-2013 7:37 AM


Mindspawn states the following:

The half-life of Uranium-Thorium is not independently established in a laboratory, but measured against existing dating methods and so is bound to evolutionary assumptions and this explains the consilience in the other 3 locations. Uranium-Thorium dating even calibrates against radiocarbon dating and so these dates become meaningless as independent verifiction of radiocarbon dates.

Perhaps that sorry thread can be ended quickly after all.

ABE:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/...rticle/pii/S0009254199001576

quote:
We have re-determined the 234U and 230Th half-lives to be 245,250±490 years (2σ and 75,690±230 years (2σ, respectively. Using high precision thermal ionization mass spectrometric (TIMS) methods, we measured 234U and 230Th atomic ratios in 4 different materials that were likely to have behaved as closed systems for 106 years or more:

The new half-lives agree within error with previously determined values; however, errors in our values are generally smaller than those in the earlier determinations.


Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 11-15-2013 8:30 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 52 by JonF, posted 11-15-2013 8:36 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 305 (711123)
11-15-2013 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
11-15-2013 8:30 AM


Even though it doesn't seem to help Mindspawn, don't we still want to correct the misunderstandings and misinformation? Creationists have a way of cramming huge amounts of misinformation into a small number of words, and the above 13 words are no exception.

Of course we do want to correct misunderstanding. I appreciate your providing of some detail, but how did I add to the confusion by citing an article that provided independent values for the half life of each of the isotopes?

I agree that Coyote's returning to the thread would be best, but I can forgive him entirely if he does not want to do it. If I were in a Great Debate with mindspawn, I would be quite testy by now.

But yes, the correct thing to do would be to simply, and dispassionately explain the set of coincidences that mindspawn relies on, because the low probability of that coincidence speaks volumes. He should then challenge mindspawn.

Then Coyote can expound correctly on the details of C-14 dating. I'm sure that's what most of us were hoping for. I don't believe more than a post or two would be required to dismiss mindspawn before the science talk could begin.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 11-15-2013 8:30 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 11-15-2013 10:16 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 305 (711160)
11-15-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Percy
11-15-2013 10:16 AM


You are correct. I did edit the message to add the reference later.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 11-15-2013 10:16 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 305 (711163)
11-15-2013 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by JonF
11-15-2013 8:36 AM


And I have no idea how he could have come up with even a hint of calibrating U-Th dating from 14C dating in his reference (his link is broken but it's Radiocarbon calibration curve spanning 0 to 50,000 years BP based on paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C dates on pristine corals).

I have an idea how he could come up with a hint, anyway. Anyone can see that Mindspawn uses 'google and hope' research. I'm sure it is pretty easy to find examples of assigning dates to U-Th results, and to a person who wants to see calibration, the juxtaposition of events and radiometric dates will look like calibration. Further, I think at this point his objectivity, if not his honesty are in question. He is simply incapable of seeing an error in his own presentation.

And frankly who wants to spend the time chasing down and refuting stuff every single post and then breaking down scientific truth so that even a buffoon can understand an error he does not want to see.

I'd do it, but again, I'd serve up the lesson with an inappropriate level of testiness and probably some accurate name calling. I'm sure RAZD would do much better than that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by JonF, posted 11-15-2013 8:36 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by JonF, posted 11-15-2013 12:19 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 75 of 305 (711349)
11-17-2013 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by RAZD
11-15-2013 6:17 PM


Nicely done RAZD.

I think the U234-Th230 data is most problematic for mindspawn. There is absolutely no reason for decay data to be rainfall dependent, and I suspect he won't argue that such data is dependent on magnetic fields and neutrons. Whatever are the faults of such data, those faults are not linkable to tree rings or varves using any mechanism.

And by the way, mindspring own arguments have already ruled out using salt water spring tides. I wonder if he recognizes that?

But it ain't over. Never estimate the silliness of a mind that can allow his fingers to propose that there world wide similar patterns of rainfall.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 6:17 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-17-2013 11:15 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020