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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD
JonF
Member
Posts: 5603
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 286 of 305 (713334)
12-12-2013 7:34 AM


Of course he hasn't folded his ideas into his P-T-boundary-is-the-fludde speculation. He's trying to compress by a factor of 11-12 which would bring the 14C dates to just before his fludde... but he's got hundreds of millions of years unaccounted for.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19069
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 287 of 305 (713335)
12-12-2013 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Pressie
12-11-2013 7:37 AM


It's incredible that Mindspawn is still saying this stuff about Lake Suigetsu.

Mindspawn writes:

I need your evidence that freshwater diatoms definitely CANNOT be affected by the rising salt water table in a lake next to the sea.

No one has said this isn't possible. What's been said is that the floor of Lake Suigetsu is 20 to 30 meters above sea level, way above the water table, too far above to be affected by it. Plus Mindspawn even quoted one of his own sources saying that tides do not affect the salinity levels of nearby water tables, so his spring tides cannot have the effect he claimed. And the core samples were taken in the center of Lake Suigetsu, miles from the ocean.

Even in places where spring tides might have an effect on varve layers (perhaps by spring tides spilling over into a nearby lake, since as mentioned before tides do not affect the salinity of nearby water tables), spring tides occur around 26 times a year, not 12 which is what Mindspawn needs.

In other words, not only has Mindspawn presented no evidence that spring tides cause varve layers in Lake Suigetsu, all the evidence we have says it isn't possible, and his own claims don't even produce the result he needs.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Pressie, posted 12-11-2013 7:37 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2013 9:50 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 288 of 305 (713343)
12-12-2013 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Percy
12-12-2013 7:51 AM


In other words, not only has Mindspawn presented no evidence that spring tides cause varve layers in Lake Suigetsu, all the evidence we have says it isn't possible, and his own claims don't even produce the result he needs.

Exactly. This would be an excellent response to the 'see what sticks' proposition that Mindspawn is using as an argument.

It's extremely tempting to write Mindspawn off as an idiot. But that would be wrong. The main problem is that Mindspawn is instead a zealot. He is doing exactly what zealots should do to defend their position at any cost. If you are going to enter a debate with him, you should not be doing so with the intent of convincing him that the earth is even one million years old.

Anyone can be a zealot, but zeal isn't the least of the problems for this debate.

Unfortunately, Mindspawn does not know enough science to vet his own arguments. He may, at some point, come up with some truly difficult questions to ask RAZD. But not until he wades through a bunch of stuff that never should have been posted, and forces RAZD to vet it for him.

Nothing for that except patience, and insisting that Mindspawn carry his own water. With regards to salty water tables, Mindspawn has not even raised an issue yet.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Percy, posted 12-12-2013 7:51 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 289 of 305 (713346)
12-12-2013 10:01 AM


Maybe Mindspawn has a weird reading comprehension problem. He does not seem to recognize that some of his own references disagree with his arguments.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 12-12-2013 10:43 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply
 Message 292 by JonF, posted 12-12-2013 11:18 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 290 of 305 (713349)
12-12-2013 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Pollux
12-11-2013 6:43 PM


Re: Lake Suigetsu
I'm trying to imagine salt washing in on each spring tide sufficient to kill the algae, then clearing to allow more growth, but like Tanipteryx, I'm getting a headache.

Uh, that would be every other spring tide, thank you.

See when the sun is on the same side of the earth as the moon, the sun's gravity pulls the salt out of the water table. At the other high tide tide, the sun is on the opposite side of the earth as the moon and pulls salt into the water table.

How's your head now?

But yes, the idea of the salt clearing out 11 times per year causes me pain too. My whole right side hurts from busting a gut laughing and my noise is still sensitive from all of that diet Mountain Dew squirting out of it on spit takes.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Pollux, posted 12-11-2013 6:43 PM Pollux has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Pollux, posted 12-12-2013 11:12 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31760
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 291 of 305 (713354)
12-12-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Tanypteryx
12-12-2013 10:01 AM


Common issue
Maybe Mindspawn has a weird reading comprehension problem. He does not seem to recognize that some of his own references disagree with his arguments.

That is a trait of those who claim to be "Biblical Christians". They do not seem to recognize that the Bible actually refutes all of the positions they claim the Bible supports.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-12-2013 10:01 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5603
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 292 of 305 (713357)
12-12-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Tanypteryx
12-12-2013 10:01 AM


Maybe Mindspawn has a weird reading comprehension problem. He does not seem to recognize that some of his own references disagree with his arguments

Very common among creationists. They Google up something, read the abstract. look for a few key words if they can get the entire paper, and ignore the rest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-12-2013 10:01 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2013 11:35 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Pollux
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 251
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 293 of 305 (713399)
12-12-2013 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by NoNukes
12-12-2013 10:29 AM


Re: Lake Suigetsu
Thanks for that explanation; I feel much better now. But why is my BS alarm ringing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2013 10:29 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 305 (713401)
12-12-2013 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by JonF
12-12-2013 11:18 AM


Google up something, read the abstract. look for a few key words if they can get the entire paper, and ignore the rest.

Yes. In fact there are a couple of biology threads here that consist of a creationist presenting papers he turned up on a search, and the rest of us telling him why those papers don't advance his argument but actually refute it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by JonF, posted 12-12-2013 11:18 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 305 (713705)
12-16-2013 12:03 AM


Chuck77 dropped by!
Did anyone catch Chuck77's contribution to the Great Debate? It is gone now, but I'm sure it was worthwhile.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by JonF, posted 12-16-2013 8:21 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5603
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 296 of 305 (713722)
12-16-2013 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by NoNukes
12-16-2013 12:03 AM


Re: Chuck77 dropped by!
I saw it. He claimed that now anyone could post there since someone else posted, and chastised RAZD for posting so many facts and trying to muddy the waters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2013 12:03 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 297 of 305 (714334)
12-21-2013 3:31 PM


RAZD's summary from the Great Debate thread
RAZD's summary from the Great Debate thread:
RAZD: volumes of objective empirical evidence provided that demonstrates the validity of dendrochronology in general and the four chronologies discussed in particular.

mindspawn: no objective empirical evidence presented that actually invalidates them.

Score: RAZD = 1, Mindspawn = 0 (and missing in action)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-21-2013 3:50 PM Coyote has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 298 of 305 (714339)
12-21-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Coyote
12-21-2013 3:31 PM


Re: RAZD's summary from the Great Debate thread
Coyote writes:

Score: RAZD = 1, Mindspawn = 0 (and missing in action)

I think, considering that RAZD steamrolled, destroyed, eviscerated, and flamed everything that Mindspawn spewed, his score should be A LOT higher than 1!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Coyote, posted 12-21-2013 3:31 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Coyote, posted 12-21-2013 4:29 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 299 of 305 (714350)
12-21-2013 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Tanypteryx
12-21-2013 3:50 PM


Re: RAZD's summary from the Great Debate thread
That's was just the first round.

RAZD is starting in on varves next.

But if Mindspawn fails to come out at the bell, it will be a TKO!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-21-2013 3:50 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Pollux
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 251
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 300 of 305 (714872)
12-28-2013 7:59 PM


Lake Suigetsu
I tried looking up the lake at CMI - no results.

At ICR 3 hits:

One mentioned the large C14 fluctuations during the last glacial as reported in an article in Nature. They seemed to say this somehow made the study unreliable.

One damned the study of the varves for not considering the Flood as an explanation.

The last mentioned Suigetsu to show that C14 dates did not agree exactly with the count, and needed to be calibrated., which of course is a major reason for the study of the lake.

Interestingly, when I returned to the ICR site to check further, I could get no hits for Suigetsu!
I don't have access to the article in Nature mentioned above, but I guess it was discussing the plateau in C14 ages then.

It is a pity we seem to have lost mindspawn.


  
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