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Author Topic:   Why "YEC"/Fundamentalist Creationism is BAD for America
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 197 of 238 (854035)
06-04-2019 11:11 AM


Apology?
I apologize for post 194. I was compiling a reply to Taq in my non-admin mode and somehow edited the post wrong. I'm not sure how to correct my mistake. Percy, can you please help? (add by edit} FIXED my mistake!

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
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  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

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    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12967
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 198 of 238 (854037)
    06-04-2019 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 194 by Taq
    06-03-2019 5:59 PM


    Re: Dredge Unplugged
    Thugpreacha writes:

    That's where you are wrong. And the sad thing is, once this fact becomes known globally, the entire scientific secular humanist community will be quite literally blown away!! Aghast at the reality that they won't be able to explain.

    Taq writes:

    That's what every con man says.

    In the meantime, we will use the evidence that actually exists.

    Actually, I applaud you for being skeptical and honest. I'm not asking you to believe me...after all, im probably misusing my meds or something.

    What I am asking you to do is to consider all sides when weighing your final evidence. Don't base your entire belief system on raw data. Use your intuition.

    All of the evidence is not yet in.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 194 by Taq, posted 06-03-2019 5:59 PM Taq has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 205 by Taq, posted 06-04-2019 12:42 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17399
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 199 of 238 (854038)
    06-04-2019 11:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 190 by Thugpreacha
    06-03-2019 2:26 PM


    Re: Dredge Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    And the sad thing is, once this fact becomes known globally, the entire scientific secular humanist community will be quite literally blown away!!


    That's a totally empty claim with no basis in reality whatsoever.

    Izquierdo.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 190 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-03-2019 2:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 203 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-04-2019 12:00 PM ringo has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17399
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 200 of 238 (854039)
    06-04-2019 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 195 by Dredge
    06-04-2019 10:21 AM


    Dredge writes:

    According to science, the existence of aliens is not impossible.


    "Not impossible" does not make for the "best possible explanation". Any scientific explanation has to be based on something that is.

    Dredge writes:

    I could think of the best scientific explanation for how Jesus walked on water...


    No you couldn't. First, you'd have to have evidence that Jesus actually existed. Then you'd have to have evidence that He walked on water. Only then would science take any interest in the how.

    Dredge writes:

    ... I wouldn't believe that explanation because I have a better explanation that is non-scientific.


    So there you go, admitting that you have no respect for science. You have "better explanations".

    Dredge writes:

    This is a difficult concept for an atheist to grasp, since to an atheist, science= truth.


    What have atheists got to do with it?

    Izquierdo.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 195 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 10:21 AM Dredge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 208 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 2:39 AM ringo has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12967
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 201 of 238 (854040)
    06-04-2019 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 192 by Tangle
    06-03-2019 3:02 PM


    Re: Dredge Unplugged
    Double Post

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 3:02 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12967
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 202 of 238 (854041)
    06-04-2019 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 192 by Tangle
    06-03-2019 3:02 PM


    Re: Dredge Unplugged
    ringo writes:

    If Dredge is referring to a "spiritual realm", that is a religious argument, not a scientific one. Don't you keep saying that the "spiritual realm" can not be measured objectively? It is therefore not science and can not be the "best scientific explanation" for anything.

    Yes. I agree that the "spiritual realm" (if it exists) cannot be objectively measured. Perhaps Dredge is onflating the two.

    Tangle, addressing me writes:

    I guess you have finally lost it. I'm sorry.

    I have noted that I am a bit defensive and edgy lately. It likely is a meds thing---I wont blame demons for that one!

    ...But I do know that all things hidden will one day be revealed.

    tangle writes:

    you neither know that nor even know what it means - if anything. Just religious blather.


    Lets put it in context.Perhaps I am interpreting the scripture wrong. jar always told me that I "take pieces parts out of context"...
    Matt 10:16-26 writes:


    "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

    21 "Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
    NKJV

    tangle writes:

    But not knowing doesn't prevent you making totally baseless claims just like all the nutters have done for thousands of years.

    I have a scrip for this one, too.
    2 Peter 3:1-9 writes:


    Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
    NKJV


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 3:02 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12967
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 203 of 238 (854043)
    06-04-2019 12:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 199 by ringo
    06-04-2019 11:40 AM


    Re: Dredge Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    And the sad thing is, once this fact becomes known globally, the entire scientific secular humanist community will be quite literally blown away!!


    ringo writes:

    That's a totally empty claim with no basis in reality whatsoever.

    It is a belief. I well could be wrong and honestly hope that I am. I don't want end times any more than you or anyone else does. I may be a nutter but I am not suicidal! Of course, Paul always boasted that to live is Christ and to die is gain, but he had a tougher life than I do. If I were being run around like he was, I might want to get outta Dodge!

    My basic point is that not everything that may happen will be corroborated by evidence except after the fact.

    Let me ask you a couple of questions, ringo. Do you believe that Jesus was anything more than an Elmer Gantry type of amalgamation? Would you ever reconsider based on intuition or would you man up and wait for solid objective evidence? Because I don't think you will ever get that until after the fact. (Hopefully I'm wrong and we can all spend a day fishing with tangle someday.

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : clarification


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 199 by ringo, posted 06-04-2019 11:40 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 204 by ringo, posted 06-04-2019 12:20 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17399
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 204 of 238 (854046)
    06-04-2019 12:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 203 by Thugpreacha
    06-04-2019 12:00 PM


    Re: Dredge Unplugged
    Phat writes:

    It is a belief.


    Frankly, I don't think it is. It's more like wishful thinking; you relish the thought of being able to say, "I told you so."

    Phat writes:

    My basic point is that not everything that may happen will be corroborated by evidence except after the fact.


    You could say the same thing about any nonsense you choose to spout: Trump will ride to his twentieth inauguration on a flying unicorn.

    ABE:

    Phat writes:

    Do you believe that Jesus was anything more than an Elmer Gantry type of amalgamation?


    No.

    Phat writes:

    Would you ever reconsider based on intuition or would you man up and wait for solid objective evidence?


    You know the answer to that. Intuition is thoroughly unreliable.

    Edited by ringo, : Replied to Phat's edit.


    Izquierdo.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 203 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-04-2019 12:00 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 8081
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 4.1


    (2)
    Message 205 of 238 (854051)
    06-04-2019 12:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 198 by Thugpreacha
    06-04-2019 11:37 AM


    Re: Dredge Unplugged
    Thugpreacha writes:

    What I am asking you to do is to consider all sides when weighing your final evidence. Don't base your entire belief system on raw data. Use your intuition.

    The entire point of the scientific method is to remove the bias of human intuition. There are tons and tons of discoveries science has made which run counter to human intution, such as quantum mechanics and heliocentrism.

    All of the evidence is not yet in.

    If you can't present the evidence that led you to a conclusion, then you are admitting that your conclusions is baseless.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 198 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-04-2019 11:37 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 8081
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 4.1


    Message 206 of 238 (854052)
    06-04-2019 12:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 195 by Dredge
    06-04-2019 10:21 AM


    Dredge writes:

    And consider this: I could think of the best scientific explanation for how Jesus walked on water, but I wouldn't believe that explanation because I have a better explanation that is non-scientific.

    This is a difficult concept for an atheist to grasp, since to an atheist, science= truth.

    Atheists don't have a problem understanding why people will believe in claims that have no evidence to back them, and why they would reject solid conclusions based on evidence. It appears to be a common human flaw.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 195 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2019 10:21 AM Dredge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 207 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 2:33 AM Taq has not yet responded

      
    Dredge
    Member
    Posts: 1291
    From: Australia
    Joined: 09-06-2016


    Message 207 of 238 (854321)
    06-07-2019 2:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 206 by Taq
    06-04-2019 12:44 PM


    Taq writes:

    Atheists don't have a problem understanding why people will believe in claims that have no evidence to back them, and why they would reject solid conclusions based on evidence. It appears to be a common human flaw.


    Fine … believe that this life is all there is - if that's what makes you happy.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 206 by Taq, posted 06-04-2019 12:44 PM Taq has not yet responded

        
    Dredge
    Member
    Posts: 1291
    From: Australia
    Joined: 09-06-2016


    Message 208 of 238 (854322)
    06-07-2019 2:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 200 by ringo
    06-04-2019 11:47 AM


    ringo writes:

    So there you go, admitting that you have no respect for science. You have "better explanations".


    A poor argument but what an excellent "straw man"!

    Believing science is limited doesn't mean I have no respect for what science can achieve.

    A super computer can't tell me about God but that doesn't mean I have no respect for a super computer.

    What have atheists got to do with it?

    To an atheist, science is the ultimate measure of truth - ie, science is their god and in effect, they worship it.

    Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 200 by ringo, posted 06-04-2019 11:47 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 211 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 11:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded

        
    Dredge
    Member
    Posts: 1291
    From: Australia
    Joined: 09-06-2016


    Message 209 of 238 (854323)
    06-07-2019 2:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 196 by Theodoric
    06-04-2019 10:27 AM


    Theodoric writes:

    Science does not care about truth. Science cares about where the data leads. Data changes therefore science changes with it.


    Hilarious! Next you'll be telling me scientists can be trusted to be 100% objective!

    Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 196 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 10:27 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 210 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2019 5:02 AM Dredge has responded

        
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7086
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.8


    Message 210 of 238 (854326)
    06-07-2019 5:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 209 by Dredge
    06-07-2019 2:46 AM


    Dredge writes:

    Hilarious! Next you'll be telling me scientists can be trusted to be 100% objective!

    You're confusing the process of scientific work with the work of *a* scientist. Science collectively corrects the errors of scientists.

    From your creation studies, I'm sure you remember Piltdown man. That's how the process of science works but more usually with new knowledge or simple error than deliberate fraud.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 209 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 2:46 AM Dredge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 212 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 3:56 AM Tangle has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17399
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 211 of 238 (854344)
    06-07-2019 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 208 by Dredge
    06-07-2019 2:39 AM


    Dredge writes:

    ringo writes:

    So there you go, admitting that you have no respect for science. You have "better explanations".


    A poor argument but what an excellent "straw man"!

    It's not an argument. It's an observation.

    Dredge writes:

    Believing science is limited doesn't mean I have no respect for what science can achieve.


    Just about everybody agrees that science is limited. But you didn't just say that science is limited. You said, "I have a better explanation that is non-scientific." You have not shown that your non-scientific "explanation" is "better".

    Dredge writes:

    A super computer can't tell me about God but that doesn't mean I have no respect for a super computer.


    A supercomputer can tell you as much about God as it can tell you about leprechauns or Bigfeet. You have not shown that there is anything about God, leprechauns or Bigfeet that a supercomputer can't tell you.

    Dredge writes:

    To an atheist, science is the ultimate measure of truth - ie, science is their god and in effect, they worship it.


    So, again, what has that got to do with this conversation? Are there any atheists here who think that way? You might as well be pontificating about how black people think.

    All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
    That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 2:39 AM Dredge has not yet responded

      
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