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Author Topic:   Why "YEC"/Fundamentalist Creationism is BAD for America
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20041
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 77 of 238 (711663)
11-21-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:49 PM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
You use the word "empirical" as if it's a foolproof, scientific only term. Let's see what dictionary.com has to say about the word;

1)derived from or guided by experience or experiment.

2)depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.

3)provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

Particularly regarding #2, the tyrants of the religions of 250 years ago could correctly say the evidence of their religion was empirical.

But curiously that would be subjective not objective empirical evidence, which would be (1) and (3) which are the scientific usages.

Objective means that anyone can access it, empirical means the access can be repeated, evidence means what is being accessed.

Says you who desperately wants to run U.S. politics according to atheist/liberal beliefs, ...

Such as critical thinking, making decisions based on objective empirical evidence, and using scientific consensus of scientific matters, rather than corporate money interests?

and not one other scientific poster on these forums has questioned you on that so far. ...

Why should any rational person question that YEC is BAD for America -- objective empirical evidence shows this to be the case. Just as it shows that people who watch FAUX NOISE are worse educated on world news than people who watch NO news.

... You're not going to answer my question about where you're from?

I have lived in 7 different states and visited all but 4, I've lived in two provinces in Canada as well and have visited 7 other countries. I was born in New England, where people are proud descendants of the Founding Fathers and the populations of the colonies, and I have ancestors that came on the Mayflower.

This information, of course, has nothing to do with the rational for good education not beings influenced by false beliefs and personal biases, which are exemplified by YEC beliefs in a world wide flood and a young earth.

Genetics alone invalidates the world wide flood belief.

Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 invalidates a young earth belief.

Continuing to believe falsified beliefs is delusion, and education should not be based on delusion.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:49 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 11:46 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 78 of 238 (711674)
11-21-2013 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:49 PM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
Particularly regarding #2, the tyrants of the religions of 250 years ago could correctly say the evidence of their religion was empirical.

Why do you say that they'd have been correct in so saying?

For religion to be empirical in the (now obsolete) sense 2 you'd have to have a bunch of people who knew that certain rituals were effective in (for example) bringing rain or curing disease, but had no underlying theory why it should work --- i.e. no theological framework: people who said "It's a funny thing, but if I kneel down and say "Please let it rain amen" then it rains. Damned if I know why."

But instead, then as now, it didn't work but they had a theory as to why it should.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:49 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(6)
Message 79 of 238 (711675)
11-21-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:31 PM


No, the first step would be to make sure they know that science isn't the only source of knowledge, that when the U.S. was founded, and it was being determined what would be good or bad for it, that science had very little to do with it.

No-one thinks it did, so that step would seem to be superfluous.

Teaching them how to think, not what to think, as one example, would be to make sure they understand what Federalist Paper #10 was about, including the definition of what a 'faction' is.

That would be teaching them what to think.

You don't seem to have answered my question. Let's continue with chemistry as an example. How would you go about teaching chemistry if you taught them not what to think, but how to think?

That's for sure, if we give in to atheist, liberal, global warming factions, all the irreversible problems it is sure to cause could have been avoided if only those who allowed it to happen had known something about the tyrannies of history.

These vague ramblings do not answer my point.

No, history shows that it did.

Well, you and I agree that this is what history shows, but Holocaust deniers say that it shows the opposite. Now, according to you we should teach "a broad spectrum of an issue, even the controversial ones". Wouldn't this include teaching Holocaust denial?

That's not controversial.

Well, there are people who deny it. So yes it is. Should we therefore teach "the broad spectrum"?

I'm sure most atheists/liberals in the scientific community consider any discussion about U.S. financial problems to be "drivel" because most of them don't have even a high school level knowledge of economics.

And those who do would consider what you posted about economics to be drivel.

Of course not, I'm sure atheist liberal courses on critical thinking would include nothing more than science, and have little to do with history, economics, morals, etc.

And this is only one of many things you're wrong about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:31 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 80 of 238 (711756)
11-21-2013 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Adequate
11-21-2013 10:38 AM


Goodness gracious me, Dr Adequate.

Thanks for mentioning holocaust deniers. After your post I did a search or two on them on the interwebs ; if I were a creationist I would have named it scientific research.

I really, really didn't know that they were so well-organised and well-funded. I didn't know about the 'Institute for Historical Review' or anything such as that before. It makes me sick.

What also got me was that some of the most prominant holocaust deniers also feature constantly on creationist websites. After considering it for a while, I must admit that I'm not too surprised at all.

And they want to teach the controvercy. They rather should go and get lost or hang/gas themselves or something similar to that.

I learn something new on this forum every day. That's why it's such a great forum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2013 10:38 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 1077 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 81 of 238 (712413)
12-03-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


Bad for America, fine for Canada
I've lived in two provinces in Canada

Blame Canada, blame Canada,
With all their beady little eyes
And flapping heads so full of lies

quote:
Also, you could peek at some of the other posting history, in the SCIENCE forums here at EvC;

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=17204

(Did you READ that, shalamabobbbi? That topic is in the SCIENCE forums)


I think marc9000 was expecting me to alert the mods? Anyway I'm participating. Hope you're happy Marc.

1 Oversimplified thinking = not thinking. Intellectual laziness.
2 Dichotomy between using your brain and trusting faith.
I've met people who think prayer will stay the harmful effects of a nuclear holocaust. They can gather in their church buildings, hold hands and pray, and the blast wave will go around them.
3 Writing off outsiders - divisive, leading in worst case scenarios to war. (Catholics vs Protestants in Ireland).
4 Folk learning/thinking - impedes progress, chains us to the past.
5 Belief based - opposite of learning.
In order to learn something new one has to adjust one's world view and admit they were wrong previously about something. Religion has the opposite message that the way to live life is to doggedly hold to a belief and endure without change. If something challenges your faith, put it on the shelf. If one learns anything, it is only the cherry picked snippets allowed by confirmation bias.
6 Self contradictory - affects ones ability to use logic or accept the results of logic.
7 Leads to procrastination in taking beneficial action, or to taking no action at all, since there is an eternity of time ahead for us to utilize after death.
8 The purpose of life becomes a game illustrated by the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". When the kids from Jesus Camp go up to challenge some black folk with the question "Where do you think you will go after death?" They answered, "Heaven." To this they walked away disappointed and the girl muttered,"They're probably Muslims."

I just finished watching Jesus Camp and I have to conclude that YECism is no more dangerous than Cordyceps is to insects.
www.thinkartificial.org/...gus-controls-the-minds-of-insects
www.strangerdimensions.com/...rifying-fungus-youve-ever-seen

Edited by shalamabobbi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2013 6:46 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20041
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 82 of 238 (712532)
12-04-2013 7:39 PM


Damage done is not always minor
Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD Message 231

At school (in our country that normally goes till you're 18, Grade 12) one of my classmates was raised as an True Christian (PTY LTD) . Known in the US as True Christian (TM). SDA. Not even allowed to drink Coca Cola at home.

After school he went to Uni, got brilliant grades, but the cognitive dissonance got too much for him. He killed himself after 3 years. Gassed himself in his car. Reality contradicted his beliefs. With tragic results for him and his family.

Sad indeed. I do not wish this result for anyone.

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 83 of 238 (713099)
12-09-2013 4:21 PM


Pope on ideology
Seems like it could be applied to Creationism:

quote:
“The faith passes, so to speak, through a distiller and becomes ideology. And ideology does not beckon [people]. In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’

http://en.radiovaticana.va/...r_greater_openness_/in2-738150


  
Jaf
Member (Idle past 1923 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 84 of 238 (718473)
02-06-2014 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


Hey guess what I have spend a fortune in private education to ensure my son isn't brainwashed into thinking he's nothing but a monkey. I guess New Zealand must be quite "evolved" it's funny how you are seeking a political solution why? Is creation forced in schools in America, if so I find that exceedingly unusual in our secular world.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-06-2014 8:44 PM Jaf has responded
 Message 92 by RAZD, posted 02-07-2014 8:46 AM Jaf has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 85 of 238 (718478)
02-06-2014 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jaf
02-06-2014 7:42 PM


Hey guess what I have spend a fortune in private education to ensure my son isn't brainwashed into thinking he's nothing but a monkey.

A less original thinker than your good self might have saved a lot of money by just buying him a mirror. I'm sure he'd have figured it out eventually.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 7:42 PM Jaf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 9:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Jaf
Member (Idle past 1923 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 86 of 238 (718481)
02-06-2014 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Dr Adequate
02-06-2014 8:44 PM


I'm of course terribly sorry for you and your offspring for resembling monkeys so closely, I can see why you hold on so steadfastly to the wild lunacy that you are in fact an ape. Me I look like Johny Depp

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.

Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-06-2014 8:44 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-06-2014 9:58 PM Jaf has not yet responded
 Message 88 by Coyote, posted 02-06-2014 9:59 PM Jaf has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 87 of 238 (718482)
02-06-2014 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jaf
02-06-2014 9:33 PM


You really didn't understand my post at all, did you? Try reading it again, but this time without being stupid.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 9:33 PM Jaf has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 88 of 238 (718483)
02-06-2014 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jaf
02-06-2014 9:33 PM


Ape-tooth monkeys
I'm of course terribly sorry for you and your offspring for resembling monkeys so closely, I can see why you hold on so steadfastly to the wild lunacy that you are in fact an ape.

Actually, we are most closely related to apes, particularly one species of chimpanzee. Monkeys are a very distinct group.

In our ancestry, to get to monkeys you have to go back some 15 million years. And even then, while our ancestors resembled monkeys they had the dentition of apes.

I hope this helps to clarify things for you.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 9:33 PM Jaf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 10:37 PM Coyote has responded

  
Jaf
Member (Idle past 1923 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 89 of 238 (718487)
02-06-2014 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Coyote
02-06-2014 9:59 PM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
I'm not closely related to any apes, you may wish to believe you are. GeV.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Coyote, posted 02-06-2014 10:51 PM Jaf has responded
 Message 93 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-07-2014 10:44 AM Jaf has responded
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 02-07-2014 11:29 AM Jaf has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 90 of 238 (718488)
02-06-2014 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jaf
02-06-2014 10:37 PM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
I'm not closely related to any apes, you may wish to believe you are.

You just have to look at the evidence. Have you ever done so?

I remember my first osteology class. We studied each bone in the human body, both as whole bones and often as fragments. Most of us got to the point where we could identify the wrist or foot bones by feel behind our backs, and determine which bone and whether it was left or right.

Then near the end of the class the professor brought out the chimp, gorilla and monkey bones. We were amazed that we could identify every one, even the little bones inside the face!

Now, how do you explain that?

(Oh, and explain the similarities in the genome while you're at it.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 10:37 PM Jaf has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jaf
Member (Idle past 1923 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 91 of 238 (718495)
02-06-2014 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by RAZD
11-21-2013 9:25 AM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
Proud descendants of apes is what I thought you were going to say.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by RAZD, posted 11-21-2013 9:25 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
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