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Author Topic:   Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 30 of 175 (711477)
11-19-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
11-19-2013 9:51 AM


Re: As a believer.
Phat writes:
... there is no evidence that He sinned by definition. Its all about accountability.
Yeah.... Sonny Corleone could do no wrong because his father was the Don. If that's your definition of sin then Jesus could have passed out babyburgers to the five thousand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 11-19-2013 9:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 11-20-2013 9:25 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 175 (711560)
11-20-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
11-20-2013 9:25 AM


Re: As a believer.
Phat writes:
Jesus Himself challenged the Pharisees to prove that He sinned.
He challenged them; He didn't say they would fail to prove it.
Earlier in the same chapter:
quote:
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
None of them cast a stone. Neither did He. He didn't claim to be without sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 11-20-2013 9:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 11-20-2013 10:55 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 46 of 175 (711873)
11-23-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
11-23-2013 10:01 AM


Re: Humanity does not have the intelligence nor the spirit to judge the Bible
Phat writes:
Humanity does not have the spirit nor the intelligence to judge the Bible...specifically Jesus.
Doesn't humanity include you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 11-23-2013 10:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 11-24-2013 7:58 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 48 of 175 (711927)
11-24-2013 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
11-24-2013 7:58 AM


Re: Humanity does not have the intelligence nor the spirit to judge the Bible
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Doesn't humanity include you?
Yes. What is your point?
Well, you said, "Humanity does not have the spirit nor the intelligence to judge the Bible...specifically Jesus." So why is your judgement better than anybody else's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 11-24-2013 7:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 11-24-2013 8:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 51 of 175 (711992)
11-25-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
11-24-2013 8:27 PM


Re: Humanity does not have the intelligence nor the spirit to judge the Bible
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
So why is your judgement better than anybody else's?
Surely you dont think that everybody is on equal footing here.
No, I think you're on shakier footing than some. You're the one who keeps changing his mind. I'm not the only one who has seen you backsliding into fundamentalism lately.
Phat writes:
While I wont say that my judgement is superior, I will say that I believe that those who walk in "the Spirit" have an edge.
Then you're the poster child for not walking in the Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 11-24-2013 8:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 175 (712608)
12-05-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
12-05-2013 10:05 AM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
Cheapens the message....does this imply that the message has value only if we pay the bill rather than God?
What could be cheaper than not paying your bills?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 12-05-2013 10:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 12-06-2013 8:01 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 175 (712724)
12-06-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
12-06-2013 8:01 AM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
Are you suggesting that surrender implies avoidance of responsibility and mission in life?
Yup. A soldier who surrenders is avoding his responsibility to fight the enemy. Mind you, a temporary surrender may be the best strategy but living on to fight another day is the responsible thing to do.
Phat writes:
Besides...the message is not cheap. It was paid for through blood sacrifice.
But you're not the one paying it. It's cheap for you.
Phat writes:
And Grace does not give us a right to be lazy.
She does if she lets you get by on faith alone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 12-06-2013 8:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 175 (712835)
12-07-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
12-06-2013 1:47 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
Abraham was pardoned due to Gods grace, however...not through his works.
So grace is kinda like a suspended threat? God could screw you over if He felt like it but out of the goodness of His heart He won't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 12-06-2013 1:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-08-2013 3:30 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 175 (712927)
12-08-2013 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
12-08-2013 3:30 AM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
In my opinion, Grace is the realization that humans just don't have the proper hard wiring internally to survive as a species without Gods help. Look at the history books.
But we do survive. If we didn't, there wouldn't be any history books.
Phat writes:
Yes, ringo...we need grace.
You didn't respond to my question at all. Let's try again:
quote:
So grace is kinda like a suspended threat? God could screw you over if He felt like it but out of the goodness of His heart He won't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-08-2013 3:30 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-09-2013 2:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 76 of 175 (713165)
12-10-2013 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-09-2013 2:30 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Grace is the gift of insurance from having your policy canceled, as per law.
My point... my point... my point... is that it is God's whim whether or not He gives that gift. There's always the implied threat that a "gift" might turn out to be a lump of coal instead of a bicycle.
That kind of "grace" I don't consider very graceful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-09-2013 2:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-10-2013 1:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 175 (713256)
12-11-2013 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-10-2013 1:29 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Grace is no mere "get out of hell free" card. It is a precious and valuable gift.
As long as hell exists, the threat of the lump of coal as a "gift" is there. I don't see that Jesus' birth, life, death, resurrection, second comming or shoe size has any effect on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-10-2013 1:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 8:16 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 175 (713731)
12-16-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
12-16-2013 8:16 AM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Oxygen is the grace that allows us to live...is it unfair that we have to breathe oxygen and that poison gasses also exist?
It is definitely "unfair" - some might say downright evil - for somebody to deliberately make poison gases and substitute them for our oxygen.
It isn't as if Hell just happened to be there and we could choose to jump in or not. God created it and He threatens to throw us in if He doesn't feel graceful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 8:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 3:41 PM ringo has replied
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 6:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 175 (713863)
12-17-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
12-16-2013 3:41 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
I think what makes people angry about the whole analogy is that they have to accept Jesus or else.
It isn't a question of being angry. I'm just beginning to wonder if the concept of "grace" is such a wonderful thing after all. An armed robber has the "grace" not to shoot you if you give him your money?
Phat writes:
But if a tour guide were leading you through a wilderness of lions, tigers, and bears, why be stubborn enough to ignore him...especially if he was a nice guy?
It may be foolhardy to ignore him but the point here is that they're his pets. He could cage them if he was responsible but instead he offers to protect you from them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 3:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 11:09 AM ringo has replied
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-19-2013 1:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 175 (713864)
12-17-2013 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
12-16-2013 6:54 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Nobody is ever forced to breathe poison.
Tell that to the Kurds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 6:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 11:06 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 175 (713871)
12-17-2013 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
12-17-2013 11:06 AM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
and that is human fault---not Gods.
On the contrary, Hell is not a human fault. God created it. He didn't have to. To use yet another yet another yet another analogy, if you dig a hole in your front yard it most definitely is your fault if the mailman falls in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 11:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 12:51 PM ringo has replied

  
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