|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Junior Member (Idle past 3466 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yeah.... Sonny Corleone could do no wrong because his father was the Don. If that's your definition of sin then Jesus could have passed out babyburgers to the five thousand.
... there is no evidence that He sinned by definition. Its all about accountability.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
He challenged them; He didn't say they would fail to prove it. Jesus Himself challenged the Pharisees to prove that He sinned. Earlier in the same chapter:
quote:None of them cast a stone. Neither did He. He didn't claim to be without sin.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Doesn't humanity include you?
Humanity does not have the spirit nor the intelligence to judge the Bible...specifically Jesus.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
Well, you said, "Humanity does not have the spirit nor the intelligence to judge the Bible...specifically Jesus." So why is your judgement better than anybody else's?
ringo writes:
Yes. What is your point? Doesn't humanity include you?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
No, I think you're on shakier footing than some. You're the one who keeps changing his mind. I'm not the only one who has seen you backsliding into fundamentalism lately.
ringo writes:
Surely you dont think that everybody is on equal footing here. So why is your judgement better than anybody else's? Phat writes:
Then you're the poster child for not walking in the Spirit.
While I wont say that my judgement is superior, I will say that I believe that those who walk in "the Spirit" have an edge.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What could be cheaper than not paying your bills?
Cheapens the message....does this imply that the message has value only if we pay the bill rather than God?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yup. A soldier who surrenders is avoding his responsibility to fight the enemy. Mind you, a temporary surrender may be the best strategy but living on to fight another day is the responsible thing to do.
Are you suggesting that surrender implies avoidance of responsibility and mission in life? Phat writes:
But you're not the one paying it. It's cheap for you.
Besides...the message is not cheap. It was paid for through blood sacrifice. Phat writes:
She does if she lets you get by on faith alone.
And Grace does not give us a right to be lazy.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So grace is kinda like a suspended threat? God could screw you over if He felt like it but out of the goodness of His heart He won't?
Abraham was pardoned due to Gods grace, however...not through his works.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But we do survive. If we didn't, there wouldn't be any history books.
In my opinion, Grace is the realization that humans just don't have the proper hard wiring internally to survive as a species without Gods help. Look at the history books. Phat writes:
You didn't respond to my question at all. Let's try again:
Yes, ringo...we need grace.quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
My point... my point... my point... is that it is God's whim whether or not He gives that gift. There's always the implied threat that a "gift" might turn out to be a lump of coal instead of a bicycle. Grace is the gift of insurance from having your policy canceled, as per law. That kind of "grace" I don't consider very graceful.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As long as hell exists, the threat of the lump of coal as a "gift" is there. I don't see that Jesus' birth, life, death, resurrection, second comming or shoe size has any effect on that.
Grace is no mere "get out of hell free" card. It is a precious and valuable gift.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It is definitely "unfair" - some might say downright evil - for somebody to deliberately make poison gases and substitute them for our oxygen. Oxygen is the grace that allows us to live...is it unfair that we have to breathe oxygen and that poison gasses also exist? It isn't as if Hell just happened to be there and we could choose to jump in or not. God created it and He threatens to throw us in if He doesn't feel graceful.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It isn't a question of being angry. I'm just beginning to wonder if the concept of "grace" is such a wonderful thing after all. An armed robber has the "grace" not to shoot you if you give him your money?
I think what makes people angry about the whole analogy is that they have to accept Jesus or else. Phat writes:
It may be foolhardy to ignore him but the point here is that they're his pets. He could cage them if he was responsible but instead he offers to protect you from them.
But if a tour guide were leading you through a wilderness of lions, tigers, and bears, why be stubborn enough to ignore him...especially if he was a nice guy?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Tell that to the Kurds.
Nobody is ever forced to breathe poison.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
On the contrary, Hell is not a human fault. God created it. He didn't have to. To use yet another yet another yet another analogy, if you dig a hole in your front yard it most definitely is your fault if the mailman falls in.
and that is human fault---not Gods.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024