Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?

Well shoot dang. 5 years later you guys are still goin at it Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Haha Phat you are too kind. I don't claim to have any advice for wiser minds. Just thought I'd stop by, wish everyone happy holidays, see if Jar is still brilliant, you know .But I'll do my best to stay on-topic. I think this is an interesting one for sure. I'm coming into it a bit late, but I'd love to throw some things out there. A great question, one that makes sense to ask considering the circumstances of Christ's death. I have been through some of this thread, but not the whole thing so if I'm rehashing things just let me know and I'll sit back down It seems to me that in order to ask this question, we need to backpedal and ask a few bigger-picture questions. The reason being: Trying to answer a clearly biblically-based question is to assume that the Bible is a legitimate source of reference. Asking if the crucifixion was "all part of God's plan" is to assume that, by the nature of the question, there is a God. Therefore I am going to assume we are talking about The bible within the context that it can be trusted, since you inferred that it can with your question.My questions:- Was Jesus a real historical figure?
- If he was, can the things he said about himself be taken seriously? Assuming the Bible is a reliable source, what are some things he said about himself that confirm his testimony?
- If he wasn't, why even ask about the crucifixion?
- If God did not plan the crucifixion, and it just "happened," how would that affect christianity?Again, excuse me if I'm treading lukewarm water here, but I believe in order to ask a question like that, some things have to be established, you know? - RaphEdited by Raphael, : No reason given.Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

Again, I don't mean to detract from the ongoing conversation, so if that's what I'm doing call me out. Awesome. So. If we're saying that Jesus is not only a real historical figure, but that the things he said can be trusted (or at least for the sake of the argument), all we can do to answer the question is look at what Jesus says himself.We find the story in John 10:14-18. Jesus has just healed a man born blind on the Jewish Sabbath, causing the Jewish religious sect known as the "Pharisees" to freak out and not only cast this healed man out of the temple, but redouble their efforts to destroy Jesus. These scriptures are Jesus speaking to those same Pharisees after calling them blind, trying to help them understand the reality of his mission. I won't claim to have the wisdom to try and exegesis here, it's much too easy to read my own beliefs into the text. But I think it is fair to say that here we get to see Jesus basically answer our question.What does the text say? -Raph

Gotcha. A fair assessment . So if, by that train of thought, Jesus is no more credible or invalid as any other historical figure, and the question is "was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?" we see him answering the question here, in his own words. I think we try to overcomplicate things sometimes I know I sure have.In the same way, we could take the words of another historical figure, Napoleon Bonaparte, and asses his values.

quote:

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Women are nothing but machines for producing children.
  —Napoleon Bonaparte

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No way am I smart enough to have that quote memorized haha. The power of Google. But. If we're merely looking at Jesus as a historical figure, then what he says should tell us a lot about who he is, and what his mission was. Who does he seem to be to you? Haha. Phat my friend, our problem is we get into unnecessary arguments. We try and argue the little things, the details, and we try to do it on the non-believer's terms. We try to prove the existence of God with science. I know I have tried. Which is a paradox because science cannot prove the existence of a "great other." That's not its job. It only can tell us what we can observe, hypothesize, and/or test. When it really comes down to it, belief in something outside of ourselves takes one thing: faith. That's really it haha. Sure there's evidence, sure there's history, sure there's personal experience, but it really just comes down to the question: will you believe in something incredible? Something that, in reality, doesn't make sense? For me, believing has changed my life. My God is to be trusted. But that's subjective . Haha. And that's the fun of it buddy. I love all you guys! It's been awhile, but it's fun to see the names from years ago here. I'd rather keep up the debates, maintain that camaraderie, than be a jerk and try and convert everyone. Jesus does the heartstring thing. So it's chilll Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.