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Author
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Topic: Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 76 of 175 (713165)
12-10-2013 11:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-09-2013 2:30 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes: Grace is the gift of insurance from having your policy canceled, as per law.
My point... my point... my point... is that it is God's whim whether or not He gives that gift. There's always the implied threat that a "gift" might turn out to be a lump of coal instead of a bicycle. That kind of "grace" I don't consider very graceful.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-09-2013 2:30 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-10-2013 1:29 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 77 of 175 (713177)
12-10-2013 1:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-10-2013 11:23 AM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Your point may have been valid before Jesus death, burial, and resurrection. (Hence why Abraham and Matthew 25 are of a different revelation). Jesus IS Gods gift. He wont take it back. Grace, however, was in effect even before the age of grace(Now)
Things That Differ writes: Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given. David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it. You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace? You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed? Hence...Grace is no mere "get out of hell free" card. It is a precious and valuable gift.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-10-2013 11:23 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2013 1:40 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 79 by ringo, posted 12-11-2013 10:40 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 78 of 175 (713178)
12-10-2013 1:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-10-2013 1:29 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes: Jesus IS Gods gift. He wont take it back But he did take him back. If he'd let him stick around, even I'd believe in him.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-10-2013 1:29 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 79 of 175 (713256)
12-11-2013 10:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-10-2013 1:29 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes: Grace is no mere "get out of hell free" card. It is a precious and valuable gift.
As long as hell exists, the threat of the lump of coal as a "gift" is there. I don't see that Jesus' birth, life, death, resurrection, second comming or shoe size has any effect on that.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-10-2013 1:29 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 8:16 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 80 of 175 (713721)
12-16-2013 8:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
12-11-2013 10:40 AM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
And why would Hell be a "problem"? Oxygen is the grace that allows us to live...is it unfair that we have to breathe oxygen and that poison gasses also exist? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by ringo, posted 12-11-2013 10:40 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-16-2013 10:43 AM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 81 of 175 (713731)
12-16-2013 10:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
12-16-2013 8:16 AM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes: Oxygen is the grace that allows us to live...is it unfair that we have to breathe oxygen and that poison gasses also exist?
It is definitely "unfair" - some might say downright evil - for somebody to deliberately make poison gases and substitute them for our oxygen. It isn't as if Hell just happened to be there and we could choose to jump in or not. God created it and He threatens to throw us in if He doesn't feel graceful.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 8:16 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 3:41 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 6:54 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 82 of 175 (713786)
12-16-2013 3:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
12-16-2013 10:43 AM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Maybe i need another analogy.  Yes, it can be argued that God created Hell...although my belief is that Hell only became real once Lucifer chose to have his own place apart from the boss. I think what makes people angry about the whole analogy is that they have to accept Jesus or else. But if a tour guide were leading you through a wilderness of lions, tigers, and bears, why be stubborn enough to ignore him...especially if he was a nice guy?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-16-2013 10:43 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by jar, posted 12-16-2013 5:57 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 88 by ringo, posted 12-17-2013 10:43 AM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 83 of 175 (713805)
12-16-2013 5:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
12-16-2013 3:41 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Yes, it can be argued that God created Hell...although my belief is that Hell only became real once Lucifer chose to have his own place apart from the boss. Again, that is NOT what the Bible says. The Bible does not say that Lucifer chose to have his own place apart from any boss.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 3:41 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 6:27 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 84 of 175 (713808)
12-16-2013 6:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by jar
12-16-2013 5:57 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Do you base your entire belief on "what the Bible says"? I didnt think so....point made.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by jar, posted 12-16-2013 5:57 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by jar, posted 12-16-2013 6:37 PM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 85 of 175 (713811)
12-16-2013 6:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-16-2013 6:27 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
I don't know of many other sources when it comes to the subject of Lucifer or Hell except the Bible and other fiction. Do you base your beliefs on a 14th Century political poem?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 6:27 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 6:46 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 86 of 175 (713813)
12-16-2013 6:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 85 by jar
12-16-2013 6:37 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
No...quite honestly I just make stuff up. To me, it makes more sense for God to have created the possibility of evil...actualized by the choice of Lucifer itself. in essence, Jesus...having been around since Day One....existed even before either Lucifer or satan. Thus quite possibly Jesus was Gods foreknown response to the actuality of evil.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by jar, posted 12-16-2013 6:37 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 87 of 175 (713815)
12-16-2013 6:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
12-16-2013 10:43 AM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
ringo writes: It is definitely "unfair" - some might say downright evil - for somebody to deliberately make poison gases and substitute them for our oxygen. It isn't as if Hell just happened to be there and we could choose to jump in or not. God created it and He threatens to throw us in if He doesn't feel graceful. Nobody is ever forced to breathe poison. We are warned...by common sense...to stay clear of it. There is oxygen enough for everybody.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-16-2013 10:43 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-17-2013 10:45 AM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 88 of 175 (713863)
12-17-2013 10:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
12-16-2013 3:41 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes: I think what makes people angry about the whole analogy is that they have to accept Jesus or else.
It isn't a question of being angry. I'm just beginning to wonder if the concept of "grace" is such a wonderful thing after all. An armed robber has the "grace" not to shoot you if you give him your money?
Phat writes: But if a tour guide were leading you through a wilderness of lions, tigers, and bears, why be stubborn enough to ignore him...especially if he was a nice guy?
It may be foolhardy to ignore him but the point here is that they're his pets. He could cage them if he was responsible but instead he offers to protect you from them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 3:41 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 11:09 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-19-2013 1:05 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 89 of 175 (713864)
12-17-2013 10:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
12-16-2013 6:54 PM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes: Nobody is ever forced to breathe poison.
Tell that to the Kurds.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-16-2013 6:54 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-17-2013 11:06 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 90 of 175 (713868)
12-17-2013 11:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
12-17-2013 10:45 AM
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Re: Grace as a necessity
and that is human fault---not Gods.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-17-2013 10:45 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 92 by ringo, posted 12-17-2013 11:15 AM | | Phat has replied |
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