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Author | Topic: Was Nelson Mandela a Terrorist? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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During his trial Madiba gave his famous "I am prepared to die," speech. In that speech he said
quote: source Like with Menachem Begin and Irgun before him was Umkhonto we Sizwe a liberation movement or a terrorist organization? This can only be answered by each of us individually. For that place, at that time, in my opinion, Mandela's reasoning was compelling. As the world has seen too many times, sometimes freedom and liberty can only be fed on blood. Edited by AZPaul3, : historical reference oops
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Am I wrong on this? Nope.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
I do not have a source ready but as I recall negotiating with De Klerk for a peacefull transfer was the preferable option to a lengthy civil war. De Klerk, of course, negotiated clemency and forgiveness to which Mandela, in keeping with his philosophy and desire for a peaceful transfer, agreed.
I can understand, and share, your feelings for justice, but in this case the extraction of justice was sacrificed to the greater goal of a transfer of power without a protracted civil war. As for the children? I think it is better to teach them that, not just sometimes but often, the universe is not fair and reality requires compromise.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
I would have gone the civil war route. For me, justice is more important than peace. OK. That is you. What about the thousands that got to live with some freedom and some dignity because they didn't have to die in a civil war? What about the thousands that actually got born and now live in a free society because a would-be parent was not killed in the civil war? I would think these folks have quite a different response.
We punish people for much less offenses. Local community standards where an individual's freedom is affected are quite different from nation-state standards where thousands of people's very lives hang in jeopardy. Would you really rather see your family, friends, neighbors and yourself made dead just to get even with De Klerk? Also, there is a major difference between being judicial and being vindictive. I'm thinking maybe you are overstepping that line.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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The Nazi's were not engaged in willingly negotiating themselves out of power instituting a peaceful transfer to a democratic government.
The Afrikaner's were. Why should Mendella wish more bloody debilitating war for his nation when a transfer of power was right there on the table without all the suffering? Is revenge so important that he should have refused his victory when it was already in hand? Frankly, yenmor, those who cry out for more killing and more blood when peace could so easily be achieved are the evil ones.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
You are a criminal. You may well be right. Sociopathic also comes to mind. But I think I'll give Yenmor the benefit of the doubt and consider him to be a young man who has never been witness, nor given much thought, to the horrors of war. I think he may have that romantic view of war as something noble when pursued for an idealistic cause instead of as a dispicable horror to be avoided whenever possible. Having been there I could not wish the experience of war on anyone for any reason. So I will wish for Yenmor to build empathy of the experience through study, discussion and thought. Lord knows there are plenty of fellow young people for him to talk with who have those horrors forever burned into their souls.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Oh, by the way, I did not place those figures here to try and justify an evil regime (they oppressed me too); I wrote those figures to indicate that the ANC was no angel factory under Mandela either. I don't understand, Pressie. All those numbers:
quote: Were at the hands of the state. Nothing in there about ANC.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Less than a thousand were directly caused by the actions of the Apartheid state. I'm getting quite the opposite impression. From the report section on the State's new strategy and their attempts to destabilize the rebellion in the period July 1990 to June 1991. It covers the actions of the official security forces, the death squads and this ...
quote: source That is considerably more than the 1,000 you gave. And this was just the one year cited in this one section of the report.
The ANC was not an angel factory at all. Without a doubt. But the report indicates that just for the one year after Mandela’s release the lion's share of the killing was still from the various organs, official and covert, of the state and greatly exceeded the figure you have given. I'm not sure it matters much, to be truthful. War is death no matter who does what when or how much. When the new government took control under Mandela their first step was to do what was necessary to stem the violence, stop reprisal killings on both sides and, with the TRC as one means, heal the society as quickly as possible. With the drumbeat of "non-violence" coming constantly from the Mandela government the violence subsided and the organs of a new democratic state were put into place. To look at South Africa today clearly he succeeded. It could have been a whole lot different (see Zimbabwe, Congo, Ivory Coast). Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity? maybe.
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