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Author Topic:   Was Nelson Mandela a Terrorist?
Jon
Inactive Member


(5)
Message 16 of 77 (712860)
12-07-2013 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by yenmor
12-07-2013 9:16 AM


Re: No.
What does it teach our children?
That the answer to evil and violence is not more evil and violence.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by yenmor, posted 12-07-2013 9:16 AM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 17 of 77 (712863)
12-07-2013 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
12-07-2013 4:22 PM


You are speaking from hindsight. If you apply the same logic with a different situation, say with the nazis... you can fill in the blanks.
What's important is we deter evil doers in the future. Mandela may have saved a lot of lives, but he practically invited evil people to keep doing what they do without fear of consequences.
I'm sorry, I simply don't subscribe to Star Trek TNG way of dealing with evil doers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2013 4:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 27 by Jon, posted 12-07-2013 9:19 PM yenmor has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 18 of 77 (712864)
12-07-2013 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jon
12-07-2013 4:44 PM


Re: No.
Hippy attitude. Try saying that to the nazis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 12-07-2013 4:44 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 12-07-2013 5:07 PM yenmor has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 77 (712865)
12-07-2013 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by yenmor
12-07-2013 12:40 PM


Re: No.
You are a criminal.
Your response to the slaughtering of thousands is to slaughter a thousand more.
You are a criminal.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2013 7:01 PM Jon has replied
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2013 8:32 PM Jon has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 20 of 77 (712866)
12-07-2013 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by yenmor
12-07-2013 4:51 PM


Re: No.
That's a really stupid response and attempted comparison.
What other nation was South Africa invading?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 21 of 77 (712868)
12-07-2013 5:22 PM


It just shows how important it is to build mature, really democratic societies with properly enforced secular and independant law and spread this everywhere with international treaties binding states and countries together. That way, the need to kill for freedom becomes redundant.
The English called the American freedom fighters, terrorists - or the equivalent. There have been squabbles across Europe for centuries, but the idea of war in Europe now is unthinkable. It's our institutions that make war impossible, not thoughts of love and peace; it's hard nosed horse trading to set up long lasting relationship backed by law that does it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 22 of 77 (712871)
12-07-2013 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by DevilsAdvocate
12-07-2013 7:32 AM


I agree that there can be a fine line on what considers freedom fighting and terrorism. However, I think the distinction is that true freedom fighters do not intentionally use violence to kill innocent civilians in their fight for freedom (however, unintentional casualties in this struggle can and do occur); whereas terrorist whole-hardheartedly and intentionally use this technique to further their cause.
How do true freedom fighters react to their children being fired upon by police during peaceful protests about what language the children will be taught in. What is the appropriate response for civilians when a nation's army is turned on them.
To call the violence the ANC practiced terrorism is to dignify terrorism to the point where the term is meaningless as a label.
Am I wrong on this?
I think you've made some great points, but I'd go further. Many Americans are lying hypocrites. Violence, even directed at civilians, has been and still is routinely accepted by most Americans as justified.
I don't honestly know what, if any violence is fairly attributed to or was endorsed by Nelson Mandela. But it would have to be pretty horrible if it dwarfed the bad karma generated from nuking entire cities or even some of our drone strikes. I highly doubt that Mandela has that kind of blood on his hands.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-07-2013 7:32 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-08-2013 1:05 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 33 by xongsmith, posted 12-08-2013 4:54 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(5)
Message 23 of 77 (712873)
12-07-2013 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by yenmor
12-07-2013 4:51 PM


The Nazi's were not engaged in willingly negotiating themselves out of power instituting a peaceful transfer to a democratic government.
The Afrikaner's were. Why should Mendella wish more bloody debilitating war for his nation when a transfer of power was right there on the table without all the suffering?
Is revenge so important that he should have refused his victory when it was already in hand?
Frankly, yenmor, those who cry out for more killing and more blood when peace could so easily be achieved are the evil ones.

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 24 of 77 (712876)
12-07-2013 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
12-07-2013 4:54 PM


Re: No.
You are a criminal.
You may well be right. Sociopathic also comes to mind.
But I think I'll give Yenmor the benefit of the doubt and consider him to be a young man who has never been witness, nor given much thought, to the horrors of war. I think he may have that romantic view of war as something noble when pursued for an idealistic cause instead of as a dispicable horror to be avoided whenever possible.
Having been there I could not wish the experience of war on anyone for any reason. So I will wish for Yenmor to build empathy of the experience through study, discussion and thought. Lord knows there are plenty of fellow young people for him to talk with who have those horrors forever burned into their souls.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 12-07-2013 4:54 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 77 (712879)
12-07-2013 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
12-07-2013 4:54 PM


Re: No.
You are a criminal.
What yenmor says he would have done is indeed vile. But I think we should apply the term 'criminal' to people who do vile stuff, and not use it for people who talk smack about what they would do if they found themselves in situations that are unlikely to be realized.
And let's be glad Mandela himself avoided taking that dark path. Had he not, most likely many of his countrymen and their children would be dead now.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 12-07-2013 4:54 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 77 (712881)
12-07-2013 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by AZPaul3
12-07-2013 7:01 PM


Re: No.
But I think I'll give Yenmor the benefit of the doubt and consider him to be a young man who has never been witness, nor given much thought, to the horrors of war. I think he may have that romantic view of war as something noble when pursued for an idealistic cause instead of as a dispicable horror to be avoided whenever possible.
Yenmor's position only makes sense from a criminal's perspective.
Only a criminal, claiming to be on the side of the oppressed group, would prefer thousands of them to die when they could have their freedom without any of their deaths.
Yenmor's just a criminal.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2013 7:01 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by yenmor, posted 12-07-2013 11:18 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 32 by NoNukes, posted 12-08-2013 1:55 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 77 (712882)
12-07-2013 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by yenmor
12-07-2013 4:51 PM


You are speaking from hindsight. If you apply the same logic with a different situation, say with the nazis... you can fill in the blanks.
What keeps the Germans from once again rounding up and exterminating as many Jewish people as they can find is not the memory of any prior punishment, but the memory of the atrocity of the Holocaust.
What's important is we deter evil doers in the future.
A good place to start is to not become evildoers ourselves.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by yenmor, posted 12-07-2013 4:51 PM yenmor has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


(2)
Message 28 of 77 (712889)
12-07-2013 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
12-07-2013 8:58 PM


Re: No.
You got me figured out. I think like a criminal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 12-07-2013 8:58 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3183 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 29 of 77 (712904)
12-08-2013 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
12-07-2013 6:07 PM


How do true freedom fighters react to their children being fired upon by police during peaceful protests about what language the children will be taught in. What is the appropriate response for civilians when a nation's army is turned on them.
I am sure our American ancestors could have answered similar questions about the British.
I think you've made some great points, but I'd go further. Many Americans are lying hypocrites. Violence, even directed at civilians, has been and still is routinely accepted by most Americans as justified.
Now, don't go painting with too wide a brush. There are enough of us out there with critical thinking skills to keep them in check, at least for now.
. But it would have to be pretty horrible if it dwarfed the bad karma generated from nuking entire cities or even some of our drone strikes.
Being a military member it is hard to comment on these as few see what the alternative could have been. What is the lesser of evils? Should we have let the war in the Pacific run its due course and let millions of more people die? Probably risking the eradication of the entire Japanese population in carpet bombing and a full scale invasion of Japan? I don't know the answer to this. No one does. One can only speculate. However, Japan's ultra-zealous military leaders would not even back down after the first atomic bomb was dropped. So that should tell you the level of commitment they had to not surrendering and the lethality of their own population that would have been committed to fighting against an allied invasion. You think D-Day was bad. That would have been child's play compared to an American invasion of the home turf of Japan with every Japanese civilian brainwashed to kill Americans.
I agree that Mandela does not have that level of blood on his hands. I think the only thing negative you can say about him, besides that he was sympathetic with communist causes was that he was at the time married to a women who most likely had much more blood on her hands than he with the ANC sanctioned terrorist acts in the 1980's, while Mandela was in prison. Mandela could have turned into an Idi Amin but he did not. He led South Africa out of the repressive apartheid and into peaceful white and black co-led government with minimal bloodshed. He should be applauded and commended for his heroic effort in minimizing bloodshed in his country.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2013 6:07 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 12-08-2013 1:51 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3183 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 30 of 77 (712906)
12-08-2013 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by nwr
12-07-2013 12:28 PM


Thanks for the links!

This message is a reply to:
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