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Author Topic:   Was Nelson Mandela a Terrorist?
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(8)
Message 46 of 77 (713019)
12-09-2013 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by yenmor
12-08-2013 4:18 PM


Re: No.
I think you are misconstruing the argument. I don't think Jon and others are saying that we should let people off because of "Peace and Lollipops". Rather that when you can achieve freedom peacefully with less deaths on both sides, this is better than continued death in the name of "justice".
For example let's say group A oppressed group B historically. If that oppression could be stopped with peaceful talks, resulting in only let's say 100 deaths on both sides, would you rather choose continued killing, resulting in 10,000 deaths on both sides in order to exact complete retribution for everything group A did?
I personally, am glad that even though Ireland was oppressed by Britain for around three hundred years, we don't plan on dealing out retribution until 2221. I know my grandparents generation did want that retribution to some degree, but I'm glad we didn't choose that road.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by yenmor, posted 12-08-2013 4:18 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Pressie, posted 12-09-2013 7:50 AM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 48 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 10:01 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 47 of 77 (713021)
12-09-2013 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Son Goku
12-09-2013 7:34 AM


Re: No.
Exactly.
In my case, rather than retribution against Britain for the Boer war, my grand parents rather preferred marrying some of them. My grand father (a Boer child who ended up in a Pommy concentration camp) found that my grand mother (a Pommy, spit, spit) was extraordinary cute. My father and me were results of that union. It happened the other way too; from my mother's side.
Problem solved.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Son Goku, posted 12-09-2013 7:34 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3732 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 48 of 77 (713030)
12-09-2013 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Son Goku
12-09-2013 7:34 AM


Re: No.
I have never said anything about retribution or more killings.
This is exactly what I was talking about when I pointed out that some people on here are like tea partiers. Same coin, different sides. Just because I don't subscribe to one extreme doesn't mean I subscribe to the other. I've found that tea party rhetoricists (I officially copyright this word) have trouble not thinking in terms of extremes. Either Obama is a republican or he is the devil reincarnate, and he ain't a republican.
Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Son Goku, posted 12-09-2013 7:34 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Son Goku, posted 12-09-2013 10:06 AM yenmor has replied
 Message 53 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-09-2013 11:19 AM yenmor has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 49 of 77 (713031)
12-09-2013 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by yenmor
12-09-2013 10:01 AM


Re: No.
Well if that's the case I apologize, but it is what I would read from:
yenmor writes:
I would have gone the civil war route. For me, justice is more important than peace.
What is your position then, in detail?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 10:01 AM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 10:42 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3732 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 50 of 77 (713040)
12-09-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Son Goku
12-09-2013 10:06 AM


Re: No.
If the ones responsible for apartheid had any sense of moral like they claimed after the fact, then they would have agreed to step down and stand trial. Accomplishes should have had their wealth and properties confiscated and stand trial.
I don't have all the answers. I don't know everything. I simply refuse to accept their ultimatum of either forgive and forget or civil war.
Again, I was listening to a speech made by a former apartheid official. He was praising Mandela. Us Asians have the saying that we don't need your crocodile tears. Don't know if American culture have something similar. Had that bastard been trying to give his speech in front of me, I would have told him to shut the fuck up. If he had indeed regretted his former stance and actions, he would have stood trial instead of giving an ultimatum of clemency or else.
Again, I don't believe in god or the easter bunny. Don't tell me justice will be served in the afterlife.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Son Goku, posted 12-09-2013 10:06 AM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2013 10:53 AM yenmor has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1581 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 51 of 77 (713043)
12-09-2013 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by yenmor
12-09-2013 10:42 AM


Re: No.
Yenmor writes:
If the ones responsible for apartheid had any sense of moral like they claimed after the fact, then they would have agreed to step down and stand trial. Accomplishes should have had their wealth and properties confiscated and stand trial.
Lol. And the US Government should stand trial for crimes against humanity for anihliating the American Indian. Riiiiiiigght.
Find me a existing country or government that has not commited atrocities or exploitation to advance they're own agendas.
Even the French aristocracy where not willing to put they're own heads in the guillotine, no one is. It is daft to think otherwise.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 10:42 AM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 12:12 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 52 of 77 (713044)
12-09-2013 10:54 AM


A dyslexic mourner has left a bunch of flowers at Nissan Main Dealer.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 77 (713051)
12-09-2013 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by yenmor
12-09-2013 10:01 AM


Re: No.
tea party rhetoricists
Is that people who make up insults to throw at others who disagree with them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 10:01 AM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 12:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3732 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 54 of 77 (713063)
12-09-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by 1.61803
12-09-2013 10:53 AM


Re: No.
Do you or do you not deny that our sense of morals have progressed over the generations and is continuing to progress?
My point is what may have been acceptable a couple generations ago are not acceptable in the last century.
This is the reason why people shouldn't subscribe to moral teachings from the bible. Those savages killed every man, woman, and child in Jericho and other cities. Nowadays, we hold people to a much higher standard than biblical times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2013 10:53 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3732 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 55 of 77 (713065)
12-09-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by New Cat's Eye
12-09-2013 11:19 AM


Re: No.
Which insults would it be? That I either agree with the majority or I'm a criminal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-09-2013 11:19 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-09-2013 12:24 PM yenmor has replied
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2013 3:55 PM yenmor has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 77 (713068)
12-09-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by yenmor
12-09-2013 12:13 PM


Re: No.
Which insults would it be?
Telling people they're like the Tea Party members.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 12:13 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 12:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3732 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 57 of 77 (713071)
12-09-2013 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by New Cat's Eye
12-09-2013 12:24 PM


Re: No.
It's an observation. It's no secret that I don't agree with the majority here. Somehow, this translated to me being a criminal. Sound familiar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-09-2013 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-09-2013 12:37 PM yenmor has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 77 (713073)
12-09-2013 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by yenmor
12-09-2013 12:27 PM


Re: No.
It's an observation.
lol
quote:
When I read your posts and jar's and others' on here, I see the same thought process as the tea party rhetoric that we see. Same coin, different sides. Basically speaking, you can't stand others who disagree with you. At some point, you've come to a certain conclusion about something, and god forbids if anyone disagrees with it.
...
That's my stance. Yours is one of liberal hippy forgive and forget. Since it's the popular thing to say and believe nowadays, I'm not surprised you're so bold with your words.
You're the pot calling the kettle black.
quote:
This is exactly what I was talking about when I pointed out that some people on here are like tea partiers. Same coin, different sides. Just because I don't subscribe to one extreme doesn't mean I subscribe to the other. I've found that tea party rhetoricists (I officially copyright this word) have trouble not thinking in terms of extremes. Either Obama is a republican or he is the devil reincarnate, and he ain't a republican.
Oh, okay... In response to peace talks you say:
quote:
I would have gone the civil war route.
And then there's this ridiculousness:
quote:
I think I'll run for office and put all Mexicans in concentration camps now.
You really need to look in the mirror.
And you're being a bit of a bitch.
quote:
That I either agree with the majority or I'm a criminal?
What were you saying about extremes?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 12:27 PM yenmor has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3178 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 59 of 77 (713077)
12-09-2013 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Pressie
12-09-2013 5:52 AM


http://www.justice.gov.za/...port/finalreport/Volume%202.pdf
The overwhelming majority of political deaths were caused by MK; Nelson started MK.
Interesting because the TRC report you provide above was presented to then South African President Mandela in 1998.
Even though Nelson co-founded MK, when he was in prison he was not involved in its violence in the 1980s (no evidence has yet been provided that he guided or approved of MK acts of violence while he was in prison), and sought peaceful solutions to reducing the violence including the establishment of the TRC through the "Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Acto of 1995" while he was president.
A very, very small percentage of political deaths were caused by the Government. That's the official figures by the TRC.
Bullshit, that a "very, very small percentage of political deaths were caused by the Government".
The Apartheid government certainly has much blood on their hands with the oppression and denial of civil rights of non-whites:
Native Lands Act of 1913, 1936 Development Trust and Land Act, 1936, 1937 Unbeneficial Occupation of Farms Act, 1946 Coloured Persons Settlement Act, etc)
- reduced percentage of land that could be owned by non-white native inhabitants to less than 7.3% of total South African land (similar to what the U.S. did with Native Americans). Black South African's were 61% of the population at that time. Black South African's were relegated to be tenant farmers of farms solely owned by white South Africans. Africans are allowed to be on white land only if they are working for whites. Blacks are fired from jobs which are given to whites
Forced removals of hundreds of thousands of blacks occurred in the 1940s and 1950s, including over 60,000 from Johannesburg under the Western Areas Removal Scheme. Areas they previously lived in before removal were bulldozed and white suburbs were errected in their place. The same thing occurred in Capetown when 50,000 were forced to move. Overall more than 3.5 million black South Africans (over 15% of all black South Africans) lost their homes and were forced to relocate from 1961-1994.
In 1951, the Bantu Homelands Act is enacted. Through this law, the white government declares that the lands reserved for black Africans are independent nations. In this way, the government strips millions of blacks of their South African citizenship and forces them to become residents of their new "homelands." Blacks are now considered foreigners in white-controlled South Africa, and need passports to enter. Blacks only enter to serve whites in menial jobs.
A "Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act 55" of 1949, prohibited the marriage between whites and people of other races. Blacks were not allowed to run businesses or professional practices in areas designated as "white South Africa" unless they had a permit. Segregation was official policy. Trains, hospitals and ambulances were segregated. Blacks were excluded from living or working in white areas, unless they had a pass, nicknamed the dompas ("dumb pass" in Afrikaans). In the 1970s the state spent ten times more per child on the education of white children than on black children within the Bantu Education system (the education system in black schools within white South Africa).
The Abolition of Passes and Coordination of Documents Act is enacted in 1952. This misleadingly-named law requires all Africans to carry identification booklets with their names, addresses, fingerprints, and other information. (See picture at right.) Africans are frequently stopped and harassed for their passes. Between 1948-1973, over ten million Africans were arrested because their passes were "not in order."
The majority of blacks were denied the right to vote. The 1936 Representation of Voters Act weakens the political rights for Africans in some regions and allows them to vote only for white representatives. In order to limit contact between the races, the government established separate public facilities for whites and non-whites, limited the activity of nonwhite labor unions and denied non-white participation in national government. Non-whites cannot attend white universities.
Violence by the Apartheid government:
a. African Mine Workers' Union strike- In 1946, African mine workers are paid twelve times less than their white counterparts and are forced to do the most dangerous jobs. Over 75,000 Africans go on strike in support of higher wages. Police use violence (batons, bayonets, and gunfire) to force the unarmed workers back to their jobs. Over 1248 workers are injured and 9 are killed.
b. A group calling itself the Congress of the People adopted a Freedom Charter in 1955 asserting that "South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black or white." The government broke up the meeting and arrested 150 people, charging them with high treason.
c. Sharpeville Massacre - In March 1960 police fired upon a crowd protesting against the pass laws in Sharpeville, killing at least 69 people and injuring over 187 others. This is followe by the government declararing a state of emergency and responds with fines, imprisonment, and whippings.
d. Under apartheid's various terrorism laws, 131 government opponents were executed. The state claimed that many others committed suicide in detention. At least some of these were tortured to death.
e. Soweto Uprising- A series of protests led by high school students in South Africa in 1976. People in Soweto riot and demonstrate against discrimination and instruction in Afrikaans, the language of whites descended from the Dutch. The police react with gunfire. 575 people are killed, many school children, and thousands are injured and arrested by South African police. Steven Biko is beaten and left in jail to die from his injuries. Protesters against apartheid link arms in a show of resistance.
e. In 1983, the SAP formed C1, a counter-insurgency unit commanded by police colonel and former Koevoet operator Eugene de Kock. C1 was run out of a secluded farmhouse called Vlakplaas from until 1994. C1 functioned as a paramilitary hit squad, capturing political opponents of the National Party government and either "turning" or executing them. C1 was also responsible for several fatal bomb attacks against anti-apartheid activists, including members of the African National Congress. The Vlakplaas farm became the site of multiple executions of political opponents of the apartheid government.
I am not saying that the MK did not commit its own acts of sensless violence. They did. However, don't white-wash and absolve the despicable South African Apartheid government of its crimes.
I asked for facts that proved Mandela personally committed or approved of acts of terrorism. Co-founding an anti-Apartheid militaristic organization in 1961 and being arrested a year later before any violent acts were committed does not count as terrorism.
Sources: http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/discrim/race_b_at_print.asp
Justice/Home
Apartheid In South Africa: Laws, End & Facts - HISTORY
PROMOTION OF NATIONAL UNITY AND RECONCILIATION ACT, 1995 [Act 95-34, 26 July 1995]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/.../en/1/13/Hector_pieterson.jpg
Soweto uprising - Wikipedia
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Pressie, posted 12-09-2013 5:52 AM Pressie has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 77 (713098)
12-09-2013 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by yenmor
12-09-2013 12:13 PM


Re: No.
Which insults would it be? That I either agree with the majority or I'm a criminal?
The accusation of criminality was a bit silly yes.
But let's recall that you said you would go "the civil war route". On its face, that too was a silly thing to say. You have in fact, since then, backed off from actually meaning what you said. At least that is how I read your response to Son Goku.
But you did in fact say way what you said, and people responded to it. Why should they not have done so?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 12:13 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 9:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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