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Author Topic:   Was Nelson Mandela a Terrorist?
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 61 of 77 (713120)
12-09-2013 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
12-09-2013 3:55 PM


Re: No.
Actually, I haven't backed down from anything. The problem with trying to squeeze a position down to a single sentence is that anything at all can sound silly. I've been working out in the field. It's not easy composing a post with a tablet.
Try to think of it this way. Imagine what would have happened had the allied gave into every demand by Hitler. Give us Czech or else. Give us Poland or else. Give us all your Jews or else.
By the time Mandela had gotten out, the political atmosphere was clearly in his favor. The pro-apartheid officials knew they were on the wrong side of history. So, they gave Mandela an ultimatum. Forgive and forget or else.
No, I'm not advocating having them all shot or hung after Mandela won the election. No, I'm not advocating going out of their way to bring about a long and bloody civil war. I'm convinced there was a place somewhere in the middle. Turn political power over to the people. Have trials. Anything. I don't care. Anything but how it actually went.
Like I said before. Thieves and fraudsters suffer a lot more consequences than the people behind apartheid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2013 3:55 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 12-09-2013 9:48 PM yenmor has replied
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 12-10-2013 8:00 AM yenmor has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 77 (713122)
12-09-2013 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by yenmor
12-09-2013 9:04 PM


Re: No.
The pro-apartheid officials knew they were on the wrong side of history. So, they gave Mandela an ultimatum. Forgive and forget or else.
Are you sure that's how it happened?
No, I'm not advocating going out of their way to bring about a long and bloody civil war.
quote:
yenmor in Message 10:
I would have gone the civil war route.
Please tell us how you reconcile these positions.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 9:04 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 10:18 PM Jon has replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 63 of 77 (713123)
12-09-2013 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jon
12-09-2013 9:48 PM


Re: No.
Simple. Call their bluff.
Added by edit.
So, now you're going back and nitpick everything I say. Typical tactic of the immature.
Let me explain further.
I don't believe it would have exploded into a civil war. By the time Mandela was released, the tides have already turned against the apartheid officials. They gave him an ultimatum of granting blanket clemency. He should have said no and offered something else. Like standing trial and such.
Why is it that you keep thinking like tea partiers? why do you keep insisting on the extremes as the only possibilities? Either blanket clemency or ling bloody war. Are you so immature as to being incapable of thinking somewhere in between?
Edit.
Don't answer that. College students rarely ever give up. Never mind.
Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.
Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 12-09-2013 9:48 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Jon, posted 12-09-2013 11:01 PM yenmor has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3183 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 64 of 77 (713127)
12-09-2013 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Pressie
12-09-2013 6:20 AM


In it, the analyses of all deaths due to political violence from 1948 to 1994 in South Africa and Namibia are provided. Statistics were obtained form the TRC.
I did a search of the book and did not find the figures you say exist. Please provide page numbers for these claimed statistics.
Even if these figures are correct, they don't come any where near the more than 850,000 dead (nearly 2% of the total population) caused by white on whites during the United States Civil War. That is compared to your 8580 black-on-black deaths out of 33,000,000 South African population or 0.026% of the total population. That is a hundred fold difference between white on white violence and black on black fatalities during two country's civil wars. Should we start adding up all the white on non-white fatalities? The figures would certainly put your pitiful statistics to shame.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Pressie, posted 12-09-2013 6:20 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Pressie, posted 12-10-2013 1:09 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 77 (713128)
12-09-2013 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by yenmor
12-09-2013 10:18 PM


Re: No.
Jeesh.
If you aren't interested in having a discussion, why bother posting?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 10:18 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by yenmor, posted 12-10-2013 6:28 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 66 of 77 (713132)
12-10-2013 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by DevilsAdvocate
12-09-2013 10:46 PM


Sure
That report was handed to the TRC (you can read his testimony to the TRC at http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/special%5Cchildren/coleman.htm).
You can also read the book itself at Page not found | South African History Online
You can look at figures such as Table 4, providing Deaths in Political unrest from 1984 to 1989, under the heading The Legal Veneer (total 5 600 deaths). You can read the notes under the table and do the maths yourself if you wish to.
Notes
The numbers of deaths are rounded off approximations, within the spread of the various sources.
During the earlier years of 1984 to 1986, up to two-thirds of the deaths were accounted for by security force actions.
During the later years of 1987 to 1989 vigilantism (see Chapter 6), particularly in the Natal region, took over as the predominant cause of deaths.
Luckily someone else has read it and done some maths for us: http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1997/9705/s970527b.htm
From there:
The manuscript mentions, among its statistics:
- 80,000 detentions without trial for periods of up to three years, including the detention of about 10,000 women and at least 15000 children under the age of 18;
- 73 deaths in detention recorded by the HRC as deaths while in the hands of the security police;
- 37 names of those who died while in custody of the uniformed police under politically-related circumstances;
- 3000 people served banning or restriction orders in terms of security legislation;
- 15000 people charged under security legislation since 1950 in political trials, and the 49 names of those who paid the ultimate price of political execution;
- 7000 political deaths between 1948 and 1989 and 46 massacres in that period, as well as 14 000 lives lost and 22000 injuries in the period 1990 to the elections in 1994; and
- abductions (30), disappearances (38) and internal assassinations (150).
Hit squad and vigilante group activities in covert repression are also documented.
Oh, by the way, I did not place those figures here to try and justify an evil regime (they oppressed me too); I wrote those figures to indicate that the ANC was no angel factory under Mandela either. If you want to see more about their transgressions, read the report from the TRC.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-09-2013 10:46 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2013 7:54 AM Pressie has replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 67 of 77 (713138)
12-10-2013 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jon
12-09-2013 11:01 PM


Re: No.
Ok, you are absolutely right. I concede to all your points.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Jon, posted 12-09-2013 11:01 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 68 of 77 (713140)
12-10-2013 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Pressie
12-10-2013 1:09 AM


Oh, by the way, I did not place those figures here to try and justify an evil regime (they oppressed me too); I wrote those figures to indicate that the ANC was no angel factory under Mandela either.
I don't understand, Pressie. All those numbers:
quote:
The manuscript mentions, among its statistics:
- 80,000 detentions without trial for periods of up to three years, including the detention of about 10,000 women and at least 15000 children under the age of 18;
- 73 deaths in detention recorded by the HRC as deaths while in the hands of the security police;
- 37 names of those who died while in custody of the uniformed police under politically-related circumstances;
- 3000 people served banning or restriction orders in terms of security legislation;
- 15000 people charged under security legislation since 1950 in political trials, and the 49 names of those who paid the ultimate price of political execution;
- 7000 political deaths between 1948 and 1989 and 46 massacres in that period, as well as 14 000 lives lost and 22000 injuries in the period 1990 to the elections in 1994; and
- abductions (30), disappearances (38) and internal assassinations (150).
Hit squad and vigilante group activities in covert repression are also documented.
Were at the hands of the state. Nothing in there about ANC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Pressie, posted 12-10-2013 1:09 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 12-10-2013 8:10 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 77 (713141)
12-10-2013 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by yenmor
12-09-2013 9:04 PM


Re: No.
The problem with trying to squeeze a position down to a single sentence is that anything at all can sound silly.
Then stop whining about being called on it.
No, I'm not advocating going out of their way to bring about a long and bloody civil war.
Except that you did type just the opposite sentiment into your tablet. From now on when you say goofy stuff I'll just blame it on your tablet.
The pro-apartheid officials knew they were on the wrong side of history. So, they gave Mandela an ultimatum. Forgive and forget or else.
Your tablet does not know any history. I'm going to assume that is because it is only a couple of years old and not because it is an idiot.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by yenmor, posted 12-09-2013 9:04 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by yenmor, posted 12-10-2013 2:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 70 of 77 (713142)
12-10-2013 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by AZPaul3
12-10-2013 7:54 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
quote:
I don't understand, Pressie. All those numbers:
The manuscript mentions, among its statistics:
- 80,000 detentions without trial for periods of up to three years, including the detention of about 10,000 women and at least 15000 children under the age of 18;
- 73 deaths in detention recorded by the HRC as deaths while in the hands of the security police;
- 37 names of those who died while in custody of the uniformed police under politically-related circumstances;
- 3000 people served banning or restriction orders in terms of security legislation;
- 15000 people charged under security legislation since 1950 in political trials, and the 49 names of those who paid the ultimate price of political execution;
- 7000 political deaths between 1948 and 1989 and 46 massacres in that period, as well as 14 000 lives lost and 22000 injuries in the period 1990 to the elections in 1994; and
- abductions (30), disappearances (38) and internal assassinations (150).
Hit squad and vigilante group activities in covert repression are also documented. Were at the hands of the state. Nothing in there about ANC.
You should look at those figures from that book (used by the TRC). For example, of the 14 000 political deaths between 1990 and 1994 (this includes the state, ANC, Azapo, etc. causing it) around 7000 were directly caused by the actions of the ANC. Less than a thousand were directly caused by the actions of the Apartheid state. The ANC was not an angel factory at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2013 7:54 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-10-2013 9:18 AM Pressie has not replied
 Message 72 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-10-2013 9:27 AM Pressie has replied
 Message 74 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2013 2:51 PM Pressie has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3183 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 71 of 77 (713146)
12-10-2013 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pressie
12-10-2013 8:10 AM


- 80,000 detentions without trial for periods of up to three years, including the detention of about 10,000 women and at least 15000 children under the age of 18;
- 73 deaths in detention recorded by the HRC as deaths while in the hands of the security police;
- 37 names of those who died while in custody of the uniformed police under politically-related circumstances;
- 3000 people served banning or restriction orders in terms of security legislation;
- 15000 people charged under security legislation since 1950 in political trials, and the 49 names of those who paid the ultimate price of political execution;
- 7000 political deaths between 1948 and 1989 and 46 massacres in that period, as well as 14 000 lives lost and 22000 injuries in the period 1990 to the elections in 1994; and
- abductions (30), disappearances (38) and internal assassinations (150).
All at the hands of the Apartheid regime not ANC.
For example, of the 14 000 political deaths between 1990 and 1994 (this includes the state, ANC, Azapo, etc. causing it) around 7000 were directly caused by the actions of the ANC.
I don't see where it says that 7000 were by actions of the ANC. Please provide an exact page number for this number. Not saying they didn't happen but the 7000 deaths directly caused by ANC is not found in Coleman's book, the SAPA report, or the Truth and Reconcilliation report that I have found.
I looked in your sources. I found where the 80,000 detentions, etc came from here: http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1997/9705/s970527b.htm
However, nowhere does it say these deaths were caused by the ANC. These figures support the opposite of what you are saying. These figures support apartheid repression.
I think it is ironic you are using reports which claim the opposite of what you are stating and these reports were given at the direction of Mandela as the then South African President himself. Mandela's administation set up the South African Human Rights Commission and the Truth and Reconcilliation Commision.
I am not saying that the ANC was without its violent history or there was no black-on-black violence (aka necklacing and other attrocious events). There certainly was. However, this violence virtually stopped when Mandella was released from prison and started taking the political reigns of his country. Does South Africa still have problems. Sure it does, just as many urban areas in the U.S. It will take decades to reverse the destruction caused by the Apartheid regime and provide equality for all people.
I still have not seen any evidence tieing the ANC bombings of the 1980s with Mandella. All I see from you is statistics that point the opposite to what you are claiming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 12-10-2013 8:10 AM Pressie has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3183 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 72 of 77 (713148)
12-10-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pressie
12-10-2013 8:10 AM


You should look at those figures from that book (used by the TRC). For example, of the 14 000 political deaths between 1990 and 1994 (this includes the state, ANC, Azapo, etc. causing it) around 7000 were directly caused by the actions of the ANC. Less than a thousand were directly caused by the actions of the Apartheid state. The ANC was not an angel factory at all.
Please provide direct page number, because I just did a search and do not see the number 7000 listed anywhere in there.
And I am still waiting for evidence that Mandela orchestrated the MK bombings in the 1980s.
The numbers of deaths are rounded off approximations, within the spread of the various sources.
During the earlier years of 1984 to 1986, up to two-thirds of the deaths were accounted for by security force actions.
During the later years of 1987 to 1989 vigilantism (see Chapter 6), particularly in the Natal region, took over as the predominant cause of deaths.
So you are tying vigilante deaths to the ANC? Why is ANC any more culpable than the Apartheid run government for vigilante deaths?
Here is what the TRC reports says about South African vigalentism
A Crime Against Humanity Chapter 6 writes:
Apartheid repression can be likened to an iceberg, having a visible portion known as formal repression and a submerged portion known as 'informal or extra-legal' repression. It is in this netherworld that covert operations are located but they are a part of the whole. Each stratum within this iceberg uses methods less defensible publicly than the previous one and relies therefore on a. greater degree of secrecy and covertness...The third, vigilantism, relies upon the planting of a 'fifth column' within dissident communities. The fourth, hit squads, is a means of last resort, the elimination of political opponents and the crippling of their structures by faceless assassins and strike groups: they lie at the depths of visibility and legality...
Vigilantism is an important component of the counter-revolutionary tactic of Low Intensity Conflict (LIC), which first evolved in Algeria and was further developed in South and Central America.
Vigilante groups first wade their appearance in South Africa around 1985 and have their origins in the support systems, which were built up around the highly unpopular apartheid created structures of homeland authorities and Black Local Authorities (BLAs). They were often recruited from conservative 'traditional' elements, or from the ranks of the desperate unemployed and even from criminal elements. Having a vested interest in these structures that they were called upon or paid to protect, they would intervene, often with extreme violence, in any situation which threatened those structures, such as calls for those authorities to resign. Their growth was actively encouraged or tacitly condoned by the state through thinly disguised support by the security forces, but also by covert support through funding, training and motivating.
The term 'vigilante' is itself a source of confusion. In South Africa the term 'vigilantes' connotes violent, organised and conservative groupings operating within black communities, which, although they receive no official recognition, are politically directed in the sense that they act to neutralise individuals and groupings opposed to the apartheid state and its institutions. These features, and the fact that they are alleged to enjoy varying degrees of police support, is all that links the A-Team, Phakatis, Mabangalala, Amadoda, Witdoeke, Amosolomzi, Amabutho, Mbhokhoto and the Green Berets.
It cannot be proven that all vigilante groups have received direct sanction or open support from the security forces - although they allegedly did in areas such as Crossroads, Kwanobuhle and Queenstown.
The police's passivity while the vigilante gang killed community leader Mayise in Leandra (Transvaal), an impi of lnkatha supporters marched into Lamontville (Natal) or the Mbhokhoto leaders pursued an intensive regional campaign of intimidation in Kwa Ndebele, must be contrasted to the police's vigorous dispersal of UDF gatherings or their prosecution of members of anti-apartheid organisations or trade unions. When the victim communities or organisations attempt physical contest with the vigilantes, police intervention has supported the vigilantes.
The vigilantes' use of township council facilities (notably in Thabong and Ashton) and resources provided by homeland governments (in KwaNdebele and Ciskei) reveals that support for vigilante activities may take a variety of forms. A copy of minutes of a meeting between a senior police officer and black traders in the Vaal triangle area on 13 November 1985, suggests that police attitudes could have prompted vigilante formation in some areas. At this meeting the police officer offered to arm the traders and encouraged them to form a self-protection organisation. It should be mentioned that it is nearly impossible for a black South African to acquire a gun licence without police approval. In Natal many of the vigilante warlords openly carry firearms and there is evidence to suggest that the police have armed some of these warlords or tolerate others carrying firearms when they knew that the warlord had no permit to carry a firearm.
etc, etc, etc
Pretty clear to me where the brunt of the blame of vigilantist violence lies.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 12-10-2013 8:10 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Pressie, posted 12-11-2013 8:37 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 73 of 77 (713186)
12-10-2013 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by NoNukes
12-10-2013 8:00 AM


Re: No.
Sigh
Look, I'm not blaming on my tablet. But any position at all can look silly when shrunken down to a single sentence. Doesn't help when the general sentiment here is either or with 2 extremes. People keep going back to the notion that either Mandela did what he did or a long bloody civil war with thousands of deaths on both sides. False dilemma.
This was a good opportunity for some compromises being reached. Instead, the pro apartheid got to have their cake and eat it too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 12-10-2013 8:00 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by NoNukes, posted 12-10-2013 4:47 PM yenmor has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 74 of 77 (713190)
12-10-2013 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pressie
12-10-2013 8:10 AM


Less than a thousand were directly caused by the actions of the Apartheid state.
I'm getting quite the opposite impression.
From the report section on the State's new strategy and their attempts to destabilize the rebellion in the period July 1990 to June 1991. It covers the actions of the official security forces, the death squads and this ...
quote:
Vigilantism in the South African context is a phenomenon born directly out of the creation of apartheid-motivated structures of government and administration. The structures concerned are the homelands (both the 'independent' and 'self-governing' varieties) and the black urban councils. Both structures are strongly rejected by the vast majority of the black population and strong pressures have built up for their dismantling. In response to these pressures, private 'armies' of-vigilantes were developed to support and defend these unpopular structures and came to receive the tacit and then the active encouragement of the state as an element which fitted in well with their 'total strategy' of the Emergency years. It was an element that helped to promote the image of 'black-on-black violence' at no political cost to the government.
.
.
.
Summary of the toll
The toll on the life of township communities over the 12-month period has been devastating. Over 3000 lives have been lost; nearly 7000 injuries have been recorded, but the real figure is certainly in excess of 10 000; no one can say how many are maimed for life; and over 8 000 have been arrested. In addition, tens of thousands have lost their homes and have become internal refugees.
source
That is considerably more than the 1,000 you gave. And this was just the one year cited in this one section of the report.
The ANC was not an angel factory at all.
Without a doubt. But the report indicates that just for the one year after Mandela’s release the lion's share of the killing was still from the various organs, official and covert, of the state and greatly exceeded the figure you have given.
I'm not sure it matters much, to be truthful. War is death no matter who does what when or how much.
When the new government took control under Mandela their first step was to do what was necessary to stem the violence, stop reprisal killings on both sides and, with the TRC as one means, heal the society as quickly as possible. With the drumbeat of "non-violence" coming constantly from the Mandela government the violence subsided and the organs of a new democratic state were put into place.
To look at South Africa today clearly he succeeded. It could have been a whole lot different (see Zimbabwe, Congo, Ivory Coast).
Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity? maybe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 12-10-2013 8:10 AM Pressie has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 77 (713208)
12-10-2013 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by yenmor
12-10-2013 2:39 PM


Re: No.
Look, I'm not blaming on my tablet. But any position at all can look silly when shrunken down to a single sentence.
Your tablet is an idiot. No one is shrinking your position down to a single sentence. People are objecting to the sentiment expressed in a sentence that your tablet posted and for which you take no responsibility whatsoever.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by yenmor, posted 12-10-2013 2:39 PM yenmor has not replied

  
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