Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
IF what I said is true, about the strata being all in place before any major disturbances occurred to them ...
Faith, if you define major disturbances as anything that didn't occur but includes other events that you imagine should have occurred, like major cataclysms and catastrophic events, then you don't see any because all the disturbances that did occur do not fit your definition. This is dishonest and invalid logic.
What you should be concerned about are ANY disturbances no matter how minor, because ANY disturbance of the top surface of ANY layer shows that they were not laid down in one process but that there was a time interval between layers.
quote:Grand Canyon has so much more than pretty scenery. It contains an amazing diversity of rock formations with an abundance of fossils hidden within. The sedimentary rocks exposed throughout the canyon are rich with marine fossils such as crinoids, brachiopods, and sponges with several layers containing terrestrial fossils such as leaf and dragonfly wing impressions, and footprints of scorpions, centipedes, and reptiles. Ancient fossils preserved in the rock layers range from algal mats and microfossils from Precambrian Time 1,200 million to 740 million years ago to a multitude of body and trace fossils from the Paleozoic Era 525-270 million years ago.
The facts remain that some layers were laid down in a terrestrial (dry land) environment and some layers were laid down in a watery (lake or ocean bottom) environment.
The fossils confirm this. Therefore the layers were not laid down in one event.
The facts remain that 'mammary' type speleothems formed underwater in caves that eroded from the sides of the canyon while it was being carved. Each speleothem collected uranium from the water during their formation years.
No two speleothems have the same age, therefore the canyon was not cut all in one event.
Then there are cave fossils (from the same source):
quote: ... Pleistocene and Holocene remains have been unearthed within many of these caves, including 11,000 year old sloth bones, dung and hair, ...
This is an animal that is now extinct but was alive after the cave formed -- hence the dung in the cave -- and the cave formed after the canyon was cut.
... all the specifics you are talking about have to be irrelevant.
That is the lie you keep telling yourself to avoid having to deal with all the evidence that falsifies your position. This is the way you resolve your cognitive dissonance, a fairly simple solution for you -- as long as no evidence is allowed to be significant you can continue to believe your delusional fantasy.
The Flood was NOT just any flood.
To take a leaf from Dr A's book the word "just" is superfluous ...
Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
The disturbances I have in mind are clearly visible on the cross sections as clearly occurering after all the strata were in place with the exception of the Great Unconformity, and I've identified them dozens of times on this thread. I'm not going to repeat them for somebody who accuses me of being dishonest, go find them yourself.
Thank you for confirming what I said before. Curiously I am not asking you to repeat yourself, but rather for you to consider that you are wrong. The logic is dishonest and invalid.
IF what I said is true, about the strata being all in place before any major disturbances occurred to them ...
It isn't true.
Because, if you define major disturbances as anything that didn't occur but includes other events that you just imagine should have occurred, like major cataclysms and catastrophic events, then you don't see any because all the disturbances that did occur do not fit your definition.
This is dishonest and invalid logic.
What you should be concerned about are ANY disturbances no matter how minor, because ANY disturbance of the top surface of ANY layer shows that they were not laid down in one process but that there was a time interval between layers.
quote:Grand Canyon has so much more than pretty scenery. It contains an amazing diversity of rock formations with an abundance of fossils hidden within. The sedimentary rocks exposed throughout the canyon are rich with marine fossils such as crinoids, brachiopods, and sponges with several layers containing terrestrial fossils such as leaf and dragonfly wing impressions, and footprints of scorpions, centipedes, and reptiles. Ancient fossils preserved in the rock layers range from algal mats and microfossils from Precambrian Time 1,200 million to 740 million years ago to a multitude of body and trace fossils from the Paleozoic Era 525-270 million years ago.
The facts remain that some layers were laid down in a terrestrial (dry land) environment and some layers were laid down in a watery (lake or ocean bottom) environment.
The fossils confirm this. Therefore the layers were not laid down in one event.
The facts remain that 'mammary' type speleothems formed underwater in caves that eroded from the sides of the canyon while it was being carved. Each speleothem collected uranium from the water during their formation years.
No two speleothems have the same age, therefore the canyon was not cut all in one event.
Then there are cave fossils (from the same source):
quote: ... Pleistocene and Holocene remains have been unearthed within many of these caves, including 11,000 year old sloth bones, dung and hair, ...
This is an animal that is now extinct but was alive after the cave formed -- hence the dung in the cave -- and the cave formed after the canyon was cut.
... all the specifics you are talking about have to be irrelevant.
There is no valid reason for any evidence to be irrelevant.
So that is a lie you keep telling yourself to avoid having to deal with all the evidence that falsifies your position. This is the way you resolve your cognitive dissonance, a fairly simple solution for you -- as long as no evidence is allowed to be significant you can continue to believe your delusional fantasy.
The Flood was NOT just any flood.
To take a leaf from Dr A's book the word "just" is superfluous ...
Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
It IS true. ...
So you keep telling yourself. Unfortunately undereducated opinion is not of any scientific value nor has it been able to alter reality in any way, shape or form.
I believe I've proved this on this thread, over and over and over again. You're the one being dishonest.
Curiously I am not the one ignoring any and all evidence that invalidates my position.
I'll keep adding to the list of evidence that invalidates a WW Noachin flood in Message 692 as they come up.
On all the pictures it is clear they don't have ROOM to move much, ...
um ... because they are colliding? Of course you will try to ignore this because this interferes with your notion of fast movement of plates separating at great speeds ...
Standing on any plate you could claim it was not moving, just all the others ...
Sadly this does not account for the ones bumping into the plate and causing local earthquakes. '
... so if they were moving in his time as much as they are moving now, fine, so he was used to the same amount of earthquakes. Big deal..
There have obviously been a number of earthquakes in recorded history, what is absent is any record of daily earthquakes ...
... , I did NOT address the other plates which could be moving faster or slower. ...
So you haven't made up stuff for all the other plates ...
... , I know you hate creationism ...
What I dislike Faith is dishonesty, equivocating and make-believe excuses. What I dislike is teaching kids garbage with the pretense of knowledge and what I dislike is misrepresenting facts.
... Too bad you're wrong.
Says the arrogant lady that doesn't recognize wrong concepts when she sees them.
Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
It is true that all the large scale disturbances occurred to the strata only after they wree all laid down ...
And it is true that erosion and the impact of life occurred to the strata as they were laid down, that some layers are terrestrial and some are marine.
It is true that each of the layers are not sorted by grain size from large on the bottom to small at the top, so they cannot be flood deposits.
... THEN you get the canyons, ...
And then you get thirteen lava dams across the canyon that have been eroded through and beyond so that the river now runs below the bottom of the canyon when the dams existed.
And of course you have still failed to deal with the speleothem ages which also occurred after the flood and thus would have modern scientific decay rates.
quote:Geologists estimate that between 1.8 million and 400,000 years ago, lava flows actually dammed the Colorado River more than a dozen times. Some of the lava dams were as high as 600 meters (about 1,969 feet), forming immense reservoirs. Over time, enough water and sediment built up to push the river flow over the tops of these dams and eventually erode them away. Today, remnants of these lava dams remain throughout the area, along with the much older rock layers they cover. Among the most well known examples of these frozen lava cascades is Lava Falls, which spills down to the river next to a cinder cone known as Volcan’s Throne. Numerous flows spread down into Whitmore Canyon, a Colorado River tributary, as well.
The time to fill with water behind these dams should give you an idea of the flow rate of the river in modern times (before damming).
What they don't provide is the time it took to erode through the solidified and cooled lava rock.
quote:... The current cycle (I) started ~700 yr B.P. The oldest (IV) includes the 603,000 8000 to 524,000 7000 yr Black Ledge basalt flow, emplaced when the river channel was ~30 m higher than it is now. ...
Not a theory Faith, a fact: terrestrial plants with roots stems and leaves are evidence of life growing in that layer. Footprints are evidence of life on that layer.
And the laws of physics determine how sediments are laid down with large particles first and small particles last.
quote:Every material has its own suspension and settling velocity. The suspension velocity is the speed of water above which the water will pick up the material and hold it in suspension. The settling velocity is the speed below which the material will be dropped out of suspension and will settle out of the water.
The relative sizes of gravel, sand, silt, and clay particles are shown below:
Sand and gravel are both large and dense. In addition, they have a small surface area per unit volume since they are roughly spherical. So these types of particles have a high suspension velocity.
This is why sediments are sorted by size during depositions from floods
quote:The connection between particle size and settling rate is expressed by Stoke's Law. This relationship shows that small particles, those exposing high specific surface area (m2 g-1), produce more resistance to settling through the surrounding solution than large particles and, hence, settle at slower velocities
Stoke's Law: V = (D^2g(d1-d2)/(18n)
Stoke's Law can be condensed to V=kD^2 by assuming constant values for all components except the effective diameter of soil particles. Then, for conditions at 30 degrees C, k=11241. For particles size values in centimeters, the formula yields settling velocity, V, in centimeters per second. Because soil particles do not meet the requirements of being smooth spheres, exact conformance to Stoke's Law is not realized.
quote:The colloidal state refers to a two-phase system in which one material in a very finely divided state is dispersed through second phase.
The examples are:
Solid in liquid - Clay in water (dispersion of clay in water) Liquid in gas -Fog or clouds in atmosphere
The clay fraction of the soil contains particles less than 0.002 mm in size. Particles less than 0.001 mm size possess colloidal properties and are known as soil colloids.
If we use 0.002 mm (0.0002 cm) for clay in the above formula we get
So if you have clay particles under gravel particles then you did not have them deposited by a single event
And I have NO idea why lava dams should be a problem for Flood theory. The timing you accept is wacko of course, but the facts are fine, something to work on later also. Volcanic activity was big right after the Flood, along with the tectonic and other disturbances that didn't occur until all the strata were laid down.
How is it wacko dear Faith?
You still have the dams at different times, they are all eroded away, AND the river has eroded below the level it was at when the dams formed -- in one documented case a 111 meter high dam AND 30 meters of river bottom were eroded away --- 460 feet of erosion ... and 9 other lava dams were bigger, the largest was 699 meters high --- 2,293 feet high. Gone.
And if we add up all the dam heights it comes to 3,535 meters, or 11,595 feet ... or 2.2 miles eroded away (without counting the depth below each one that has also been eroded since they were deposited).
Eroded by the river you cannot believe carved the canyon.
In case you can't tell I've stopped caring about this thread ...
But you never really cared about the thread, Faith, you did not participate to debate or learn, but rather to pontificate and expound on your delusional hypothesis fantasy.
Your "evidence" amounts to avoiding reality, making up your mind, and then only seeing what fits your fantasy ... no matter how impossible it is.
... RAZD who had nothing to do with the argument about the timing of major disturbances to the strata suddenly decides without reading any of it ...
Oh I read it Faith, your argument was delusional then, as it is delusional now, because it just doesn't work. There are so many aspects that demonstrate that your thinking is invalid and impossible.
Invalid and impossible because of all the facts that you ignore and deny.
... Jon and Pollux ... and Dr. A ...
So go cry if you want to - it's your party and you sent out the invites. When you want to look reality in the eye, then check back here.
Of course I don't come to learn. Neither do you. ....
But you should.
If you don't have a degree in a field then you do not have the education to discuss that field in depth. You certainly do not have the required knowledge to even pretend to correct people in those fields.
And I do come here to learn, and I learn a lot by following discussions of people more knowledgeable in specific fields than I, and I learn by researching things to post -- most recently about the sloth fossil that disproves your mechanisms for formation of the flood.
And, of course I learn about how intransigent some people can be ... as I have heard said it is easier to fool a gullible person than to show them they have been fooled.
It is a fact that none of the major disturbances occurred until after the strata were all laid down, with one exception ...
But lots of disturbances you don't acknowledge, disturbances that demonstrate time between layers, details that invalidate your scenario.
The fact that you need to distinguish between "major" and all those other inconvenient disturbances is evidence that you recognize - at some level - that there is information that you need to ignore if you want to maintain your belief. Classic cognitive dissonance behavior.
And for the record, they were disturbed by major tectonic events -- they were raised above sea level (when they had terrestrial deposits) and they were lowered below sea level (when they had marine deposits).
But science doesn't require massive earthquakes or many volcanic eruptions at every location and past time around the world, nor are they necessarily a result of uplift or subsidence -- that is misinformation you invented to tell yourself so you could make an old earth unreasonable in order to resolve your personal conflict with the details that both individually and in combination invalidate your scenario.
Science works to discover what happened rather than try to tell the world how it should have behaved.
... and that has big implications for the Flood and against the OE.
Nope. Not one. Nor do the "implications" invalidate the science in any way, instead this just means that there were no catastrophic upheavals during the time that the tectonics caused uplift and subsidence several times. Amazingly catastrophic upheavals were not expected. Geologists are not shocked nor dismayed by these "implications" because they know the geology involved.
My argument is solid and true, and calling it delusional does not amount to an argument on your part either.
Given that you cling to a falsified belief in spite of the detailed and voluminous evidence that shows it is falsified, the classification is just calling a spade a spade.
The reality is that the earth is old, very very old, and there is no evidence of a world wide flood.
As for meanders I know about meanders, what you are claiming is that the canyon itself meanders and I don't know what you mean by that or what the significance of it is.
Re: Reasons to believe the Faiths Flood Fantasy Never Happened
... Apparently the water sorted things, apparently water is capable of doing that. ...
In what universe Faith?
Water sorts deposits by size and density per Stoke's Law ... not by magic.
Thus you get gravel and sand deposits first silt later and clay after that -- it the water is still enough (and still enough is slower the finer the particle size) and if the water is not still enough for settling it keeps the particles in suspension.
Thus when a river enters a lake or ocean the flow spreads out, and as it spreads out the flow slows down, boulders are deposited, then gravel then sand then silt then clay
That is how water sorts sediments, Faith.
... . That's the only answer there is. ...
No Faith, there are plenty of other reasons for the sediments being distributed the way they are -- processes that can actually be observed today are sufficient to explain what is seen in the sediment layers of the past, no magic water needed.
But it is the only answer for you in order to make the evidence of reality warp into your fantasy -- another reason your fantasy is warped and not real.
... But I would think there would be a big problem for Old Earthers having to explain why a layer should have a characteristic collection of fossils in any particular time period as well, ...
Why Faith? The scientific explanation is really quite simple: those animals and plants lived at the time the sediment was forming, and this can be verified by finding similar fossils in similar age deposits. This has been done. This is what develops "index fossils" in science.
We can also look at successive layers and watch as the plants and animals evolve into the ones around us today, no magic necessary, just ordinary every day processes.
... a collection that emphasizes what is taken to be that era's signature creature as it were, but without also including what are considered to be that creature's ancestors along with it, ...
Simply because ancestors are older, so they should be found in older sediments, just as their offspring should be found in younger sediments.
There is a 65 million year record that is virtually complete with every species of forams and showing their evolution from older lower species to younger higher species.
quote:Darwin termed the process gradualism, a theory that invokes the slow accumulation of small evolutionary changes over a large period of time, as a result of the pressures of natural selection. What Arnold and Parker found is almost a textbook example of gradualism at work.
We've literally seen hundreds of speciation events," syas Arnold. "This allows us to check for patterns, to determine what exactly is going on. We can quickly tell whether something is a recurring phenomenon--a pattern--or whether it's just an anomally. This way, we cannot only look for the same things that have been observed in living organisms, but we can see just how often these things really happen in the environment over an enormous period of time.
... and a whole array of other living things that had been evolving right along with it as well. ...
During any one time there would be complete ecosystems, each living organism evolving in its own way.
... Why is there this odd and rather limited specificity in the layers? ...
There are only so many organisms alive at any one time Faith. Look at the life around you today -- why is there this odd and rather limited specificity today?
... It's just too neat. ...
Your incredulity is amusing
... Oh here's the dinosaur era, but where are all the dinosaur precursors. They should be in the same layer shouldn't they in just as great numbers shouldn't they?
Pelycodus ralstoni is the ancestor species of Pelycodus trigonodus which is the ancestor of Pelycodus jarrovii which is the ancestor of Notharctus nunienus and Notharctus venticolus ... the fossils are found at different depths according to age (law of superposition) and you can see the transitions over time, including a speciation event at the top.
Layers are like snapshots going back in time
Or is your understanding of evolution really that poor.
RAZD called delusional the evidence of this cross section that the major disturbances occurred after all the strata were in place, ...
No Faith -- what is delusional is your refusal to look at the finer details that show erosion and life on the surfaces of or in each of these layers. Disturbances don't have to be major events for the surfaces to be affected. What is delusional is thinking that fine sediments can be deposited on top of coarse sediments by a single event. What is delusional is ignoring all the other evidence of age and formation, from the meandering of the canyon as a whole to the incised meandering of the river within the canyon, to the evidence of speleothems showing not just great age but different ages at different locations and depths -- evidence that is only consistent the canyon developing over long periods of time ... or with a joker god who tricks you ...
... They think a block of layers was tilted and then new layers were laid down horizontally on top of the tilted block. I believe the block was tilted beneath a deep stack of layers that was already in place above it. But since I can't prove this I'm conceding it for now. ...
Tilted and eroded and the eroded material carried away leaving a relatively flat surface on which new deposits were laid. A process that is observed elsewhere in many places.
Your fantasy does not answer the question of where the material went, nor does it reflect any process that is occurring in the world.
All that tectonic and volcanic and earthquake activity happened only after all the strata were in place, not during their laying down.
As has been pointed out on several occasions there are layers that were deposited in marine environments and layers that were deposited in terrestrial environments, that these layers were uplifted, subsided, uplifted, subsided, uplifted etc etc etc. As has been noted several times such activity covered large areas that were moved up and down as whole units. The evidence is in the layers, and readily seen if one removes the myopic blurred glasses and gets closer than a mile from the rock.
It may seem improbable that such large areas are moved whole and complete, but this is really just a small portion of the surface of the earth.
There are also disturbances that have occurred after the canyon was well developed, but not yet in its current level, including volcanic and earthquake activity ... such as the volcanic dams that blocked the incised river and were eroded away and left high on the canyon walls as the river continued to erode into the uplifting deposits below the level of the bottom of these dams. They occurred after the meanders were well incised into the rock.
... Happy New Year to all my devoted enemies here.
Your "enemies" Faith are your convictions, not the people who are trying to help you.
quote:A meander, in general, is a bend in a sinuous watercourse or river. A meander is formed when the moving water in a stream erodes the outer banks and widens its valley and the inner part of the river has less energy and deposits what it is carrying. A stream of any volume may assume a meandering course, alternately eroding sediments from the outside of a bend and depositing them on the inside. The result is a snaking pattern as the stream meanders back and forth across its down-valley axis.
The context tells us that they mean any volume that stays inside the banks of the river\stream, because only then do you get the erosion\deposition pattern they talk about.
Further down:
quote:Meander geometry
... It is characterized as an irregular waveform. Ideal waveforms, such as a sine wave, are one line thick, but in the case of a stream the width must be taken into consideration. The bankfull width is the distance across the bed at an average cross-section at the full-stream level, typically estimated by the line of lowest vegetation.
As a waveform the meandering stream follows the down-valley axis, a straight line fitted to the curve such that the sum of all the amplitudes measured from it is zero. This axis represents the overall direction of the stream.
At any cross-section the flow is following the sinuous axis, the centerline of the bed. Two consecutive crossing points of sinuous and down-valley axes define a meander loop. ...
Again, obviously inside the banks of the river, so the volume can be any size as long as the flow stays within the banks. Flood flow over the banks will erode across the meanders and tend to fill them in.
If you have a flood over the sides of the bank then the flow would follow the down valley curve as that is the steepest path and takes the least energy to follow.
Post flood fantasy catastrophic cascading flow is by your definition over the banks of the river at the start ... and it would take the fastest (lowest energy) path to the sea. It would not follow the course of the Colorado River whether there before or after. It would not could not create meanders.
Have you ever looked at how a flooded river flows?
quote:A floodplain or flood plain is an area of land adjacent to a stream or river that stretches from the banks of its channel to the base of the enclosing valley walls and experiences flooding during periods of high discharge ...
Flood plains are made by a meander eroding sideways as they travel downstream. When a river breaks its banks and floods, it leaves behind layers of alluvium (silt). These gradually build up to create the floor of the flood plain. Floodplains generally contain unconsolidated sediments, often extending below the bed of the stream. These are accumulations of sand, gravel, loam, silt, and/or clay, ...
Seeing as there are no such floodplain until the river exits the canyon, no such deposition north and south of the rims of the canyon, there was no flow over the tops of the banks.
This image is about 440 miles horizontally but only 3 miles at most vertically. The same distance that is about a mile vertically is about 30 miles horizontally. Were both the horizontal and vertical scales the same what looks like quite a bit of bending in the stratographic layers would appear almost flat.
I rescaled the diagram to about 1:1
A lot of the detail is lost, but you can follow the bands of color to get a better idea of what the actual slopes would be.
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