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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
ringo
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Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 6 of 638 (713554)
12-14-2013 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PlanManStan
12-13-2013 4:31 PM


PlanManStan writes:

... they usually give me first-hand accounts of divine intervention.


There's a difference between divine intervention and intelligent design. Given a divine entity with the ability to intervene in a way that is observable by humans, can we assume that that entity has the ability to design and not just manipulate?

And if that entity could design (presumably) life on earth, did it? There's also a difference between possibility and history. Maybe Napoleon Bonaparte could have translated the Bible into Swedish but did he?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PlanManStan, posted 12-13-2013 4:31 PM PlanManStan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PlanManStan, posted 12-14-2013 11:28 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
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Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 8 of 638 (713561)
12-14-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by PlanManStan
12-14-2013 11:28 AM


PlanManStan writes:

I never said (or didn't mean to) say that there was a similarity between ID and divine intervention.


I know you didn't. I was just pointing out the flaw in the argument, which requires two gaps in logic, not just one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PlanManStan, posted 12-14-2013 11:28 AM PlanManStan has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 132 of 638 (724463)
04-17-2014 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Ed67
04-17-2014 12:00 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

I think the only argument ID needs (though the concept has many) is in the digital code built into the DNA/RNA.


I would say that the molecule is the code. Are you suggesting that the code is "written on" the molecule by some designer? What would be the ink?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Ed67, posted 04-17-2014 12:00 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Ed67, posted 04-18-2014 8:50 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 142 of 638 (724672)
04-19-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Ed67
04-18-2014 8:50 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

The 'ink' is the four bases.


But the four bases are the DNA molecule. The "code" is nothing more than the molecule itself. A water molecule carries information too, in the same way, only less of it. It's just a molecule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Ed67, posted 04-18-2014 8:50 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 8:26 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 160 of 638 (724915)
04-22-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Ed67
04-20-2014 8:26 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

The 'code' is the SPECIFIC ARRANGEMENT of bases along the DNA molecule.


Every molecule has a specific arrangement. There is nothing about the DNA molecule that is unique in that regard; the chemistry of DNA isn't fundamentally different from the chemistry of water. It does what it has to do. It could be said that life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 8:26 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Ed67, posted 04-22-2014 8:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 178 of 638 (725004)
04-23-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Ed67
04-22-2014 8:08 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

ringo writes:

There is nothing about the DNA molecule that is unique in its specific arrangement.


I'd like you to cite your source on this point, please, unless it's your opinion.

You have that backwards. You're the one making the positive claim that the DNA molecule is unique, so you're the one who's required to substantiate it. Every chemical compound is unique in its own way but if you think DNA is "more unique" than water, for example, if you think it has some "special" chemistry, you need to show us your evidence for that.

Ed67 writes:

This doesn't sound like any water I've seen:
"But what, exactly, is DNA? In short, DNA is a complex molecule that consists of many components, a portion of which are passed from parent organisms to their offspring during the process of reproduction." http://www.nature.com/...ure-that-encodes-biological-6493050


Again, you'd have to show how the chemistry is unique.

Misquoting me, Ed67 writes:

"Ringo" writes:
Life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry.


What I said was, "It could be said that life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry." Message 160 This is a science-oriented forum and we appreciate rigor, especially when it comes to quotes.

Ed67 writes:

What makes you think that? That's what Francis Crick hypothesized and disproved in the fifties, isn't it?


I'm not awae that he disproved any such thing. Please explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Ed67, posted 04-22-2014 8:08 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 1:09 PM ringo has replied
 Message 185 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 1:38 PM ringo has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 179 of 638 (725006)
04-23-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Ed67
04-23-2014 10:43 AM


Re: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

Still waiting for an INTELLIGENT, reasoned response to my main argument for design; the existence of a RECIPE embedded in DNA/RNA that requires a cause.


Somebody already did that by pointing out that there is also a recipe for salt crystals embedded in Na and Cl. You need to show how that recipe is fundamentally different from the recipe in DNA.

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 Message 175 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:43 AM Ed67 has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 187 of 638 (725034)
04-23-2014 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Ed67
04-23-2014 1:09 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

Are you aware of the basic course of research that Crick engaged in after finalizing the initial discovery of the double helix?


I'm sure we're all interested in hearing your take on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 1:09 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 2:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 191 of 638 (725047)
04-23-2014 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Ed67
04-23-2014 2:25 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

They had the common sense to call a spade a spade, and a code a code.


They called it a code. I have not disputed that it can be called a code. What I'm saying is that it is nothing beyond the structure of the molecule, nothing that every other molecule doesn't carry.

The point you're (supposedly) responding to is the idea that life is a byproduct of DNA's structure. You claimed in Message 161 that Crick disproved that. Show us the disproof.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 2:25 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 7:10 PM ringo has replied
 Message 204 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 10:01 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 210 of 638 (725129)
04-24-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Ed67
04-23-2014 7:10 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:

I ASKED whether Crick had disproven this idea, I didn't state it as fact.


What you said in Message 161 was:
quote:
That's what Francis Crick hypothesized and disproved in the fifties, isn't it?

You asked me to confirm what you seemed to be presenting as a fact. I'll remind you again that this is a science-oriented forum where precision is highly valued.

Ed67 writes:

Now, do you agree that scientists have found what Crick called a 'code' embedded in the nucleic acids?


I have never disputed that scientists call the arrangement of the DNA molecule a "code". However, they could just as well call the arrangement of the water molecule a code or the arrangement of the salt molecule a code. There is nothing separate from the structure of the molecule. That's why I asked you initially what the "ink" was. If there's no ink, there's no need for a writer.

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 Message 195 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 7:10 PM Ed67 has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 211 of 638 (725132)
04-24-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Ed67
04-24-2014 10:01 AM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Ed67 writes:

Ringo, do you really not understand that the code embedded in the DNA is the instructions for building the cell?


There is nothing "embedded" in the molecule; there is nothing "written on" the molecule; there is only the structure of the molecule. Cells are not built according to "instructions"; they are built by ordinary chemical reactions, a set of chemical reactions that is specific to the DNA molecule but that works on exactly the same principles as any other reaction.

Ed67 writes:

A little more attention in high school biology would have prevented your misunderstanding...


I don't like to mention it because it was a long time ago and I've never worked in the field but I do have a Bachelor of Science degree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 10:01 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 2:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(4)
Message 213 of 638 (725171)
04-24-2014 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Ed67
04-24-2014 2:56 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Ed67 writes:

ringo writes:

There is nothing "embedded" in the molecule; there is nothing "written on" the molecule; there is only the structure of the molecule.


Someone disagrees:

No. They don't. Just because somebody uses the word "embedded" doesn't mean that they think there is anything "extra".

I gave the example elsewhere of animal tracks in the snow. The tracks are "embedded" in he snow, if you must use that word, but they are not separate from the snow. They are just part of the shape of the snow. And they can provide "information" to a hunter even though they weren't put there by any intelligence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 2:56 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 215 of 638 (725184)
04-24-2014 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Ed67
04-24-2014 3:39 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Are you just posting random quotes now? How does what you quoted even address what I said?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 3:39 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 4:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 241 of 638 (725298)
04-25-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Ed67
04-24-2014 4:00 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Ed67 writes:

The CODE for building proteins necessary for life. In a molecule. Now you can't say that about salt.


Of course you can. The only "code" is the arrangement of the molecule. Every molecule has an arrangement which determines its reactions. What's so hard to understand about that?

If you could stop being hypnotized by words like "code" and "embedded", maybe you could start to understand the chemistry.

Edited by ringo, : Speling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 4:00 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Ed67, posted 04-25-2014 9:55 PM ringo has replied
 Message 268 by Ed67, posted 04-26-2014 11:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19604
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 242 of 638 (725301)
04-25-2014 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Ed67
04-24-2014 7:29 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Ed67 writes:

You can't even understand the basic function of DNA.


Let's say XY is a molecule with a "code" (its structure). We have a bunch of XY swimming around in a beaker with a bunch of W and a bunch of Z. An XY attaches to a W to make WXY. Then the WXY attaches to a Z to make ZWXY. Then the original XY separates, leaving ZW.

That's pretty much how chemistry works.

Pop quiz: Can you spot the DNA?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:29 PM Ed67 has taken no action

  
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