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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 105 of 638 (720342)
02-21-2014 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dadman
02-21-2014 2:42 PM


Re: very good stile .... you are correct
dadman writes:

however .. before we can continue ... we need to nail down this truth until all are onboard . . . I plan to leave no one behind

Too late.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(4)
Message 116 of 638 (720449)
02-23-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by NoNukes
02-23-2014 7:01 PM


Re: non-science non-sense
NoNukes writes:

Which one is the offspring? The one on the left?

In my experience, the one's on the right are always a little off.

Anyway, you have to teach offspring:

"When an amoeba loves itself very much..."


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(5)
Message 173 of 638 (724976)
04-23-2014 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by subbie
04-23-2014 10:16 AM


Re: So much for the Debunking
subbie writes:

Ed67 writes:

Oooo, I hit a soft spot.

Thanks for that, I needed a good chuckle.

The Black Knight always cracks jokes after you chop off his legs.

He'll ignore a few more days' worth of refutations, then declare victory.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:16 AM subbie has seen this message

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 206 of 638 (725089)
04-24-2014 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Ed67
04-24-2014 10:01 AM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Ed67 writes:

That's one of the more ignorant statements I've read on this thread. I'm embarrassed for you. A little more attention in high school biology would have prevented your misunderstanding...

Ringo was born without your Inner Secret Decoder Ring.

Therefore, he sees all molecules as just molecules, missing the incontrovertible signs that you alone can see (but for some reason cannot elucidate) which denote special magic molecules.

We all do the best we can with what we've got.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 10:01 AM Ed67 has taken no action

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 227 of 638 (725246)
04-25-2014 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:55 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Ed writes:

CS writes:


frako writes:

Where do you see the code?


The same place Watson and Crick saw it, silly.

I don't believe you.

If you don't believe that, there's nothing i can do for you.

If you could be more specific about how you think you're saying the same things, then you might make more sense.

If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you.

How you do go on--but, in this case, I agree.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 255 of 638 (725358)
04-26-2014 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Taq
04-25-2014 5:56 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Taq writes:

I don't see a code. Can you please describe it for me?

I think I can help.

Other complex molecules do what natural law compels them to do.

DNA does what natural law compels it to do in the name of god.

You probably couldn't see that 'cause it's a secret invisible code.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by RAZD, posted 04-26-2014 9:34 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 257 of 638 (725364)
04-26-2014 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by RAZD
04-26-2014 9:34 AM


Re: the cornstarch evidence of design
RAZD writes:

Is that like the secret invisible code in cornstarch?

Maybe. A good sauce is divine.

You can't say that about most people


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by RAZD, posted 04-26-2014 9:34 AM RAZD has seen this message

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 315 of 638 (725685)
04-30-2014 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by NoNukes
04-29-2014 2:16 PM


Forgive me for riding your coat-tails, NoNukes, but your excellent question...

Is a beaver dam a product of ID? Why or why not?

...brought to mind these feathered friends. The Caledonian crows fashion various tools, mainly to fish out insects. They fashion a tool, use it, then modify it for better functionality. They make left handed and right handed hooks. They can fashion a sequence of three different tools in order to solve a food gathering problem.

What's more motivating than food? Well, the fair feathered sex, of course. Here is a bower created by a Satin Bowerbird in its blue period. The bowerbirds work long hours at this construction, using decorative objects that complement or contrast shapes and colors. They step back from their work, walk around it, and then make adjustments.

Surely both of these constructions were designed as intelligently as my bad back.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2014 2:16 PM NoNukes has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by 1.61803, posted 04-30-2014 5:22 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(4)
Message 318 of 638 (725706)
04-30-2014 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by 1.61803
04-30-2014 5:22 PM


~1.6 writes:

Crows have also been observed casting hard nuts onto the busy road to have cars smash them. Then they fly down and eat them.

Using us humans as a makeshift nutcracker.

Corvids are amazing creatures that have fascinated me for many years. The literature on corvid intelligence is considerable; a fine intro is Mind of the Raven by biologist Bernd Heinrich (1999), which helped draw modern researchers' attention to corvid intelligence. As noted in my post on New Caledonia crows, their tool making is exceeded on this planet only by our own and is far more subtle and complex than that of chimps who fish for termites with a stick.

I have a friend named Manitou who lives in an Audubon aviary in northwestern Connecticut. He was captured as a fledgling and imprinted on humans, and so cannot be released into the wild.

Ravens, like many corvids, can recognize individual human faces. Manitou also recognizes our voices as we approach the aviary by trail. He vocalizes excitedly: if we tarry too long looking at the peregrine or the kestrel, he complains loudly.

We usually spend a half hour or so outside his enclosure, exchanging quorks and croacks and clicks. I can pop my jaw joints resoundingly, closely imitating one of his sounds; he peers at me intensely and answers in kind.

One day this past winter we offered him some dehydrated chicken strips, the first time we'd done so. He stashed them in the snow drift at the front of his enclosure. When we finally started to walk away, he began vocalizing frantically; we looked back and saw that he had excavated a small fillet of fish from his cache and held it against the wire fencing. We walked back but didn't take his fish.

He regarded us for a moment, apparently concluded we couldn't reach the fish, then with a few deft motions used his beak to notch the fillet so that a corner could be pushed through the fence. I've rarely been so moved: the sense of contact was powerful. We refused again, with genuine thanks.

The next time we visited, we had nothing for Manitou, and he was clearly disappointed. After visiting him, we hiked for a while and then returned. My companion offered him a long cylindrical curl of birch bark as a consolation toy. He took it, studied it for a moment, then tried to return it. Alas, it could only fit through the fence end-first, difficult for him to achieve while clinging to the fence. So he hopped down, trimmed it from a cylinder to a ring, hopped back up and offered that back to my companion. He took care in trimming the bark to maintain the round band of material.

There's a mind and personality in there, and our recognition of that is mutual: I'll eat his fish if he doesn't have a theory of mind

He's clearly as excited to see his friends as we are to have a raven buddy. I feel guilty if I let too much time go by without a visit to Manitou.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by 1.61803, posted 04-30-2014 5:22 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-30-2014 7:49 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 321 by 1.61803, posted 05-01-2014 10:23 AM Omnivorous has seen this message

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 320 of 638 (725709)
04-30-2014 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by Dr Adequate
04-30-2014 7:49 PM


... but the sample is small.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-30-2014 7:49 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 352 of 638 (736569)
09-11-2014 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by taiji2
09-11-2014 10:18 AM


Welcome
Welcome, taiji2. We're always glad to see new members.

Frankly, I don't want to take an extended survey. I think you probably mean to lay the groundwork for discussing your own ideas, but you'd get better responses by just saying what you think about the legitimacy of arguments for design.

OTOH, me and jar and Coyote are registered curmudgeons, though jar and I are right more often, while Coyote is merely always Right.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by taiji2, posted 09-11-2014 10:18 AM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by taiji2, posted 09-11-2014 12:16 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 359 of 638 (736589)
09-11-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by taiji2
09-11-2014 12:16 PM


Re: Welcome
taiji2 writes:

quote:
Frankly, I don't want to take an extended survey.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I truly don't know what you mean here. I was not aware I had asked for any sort of survey, brief or extended. I simply asked questions which, having read the thread prior, had not been asked and answered.

quote:
I think you probably mean to lay the groundwork for discussing your own ideas

If you are implying I am all set to argue a corpus of doctrine that encompasses "my own ideas" and come to a definitive conclusion, my response is no, I really have no firm beliefs that cannot be changed with sufficiently plausible explanation. I do have questions on the subject which have come to mind as a result of having read past posts on the thread.

If it is not correct to continue the thread with questions that have not been asked and answered, just tell me and I will exit peacefully.

No, taiji2, I don't mean to imply anything untoward or accuse you of any sort of duplicity.

It's really a practical matter.

The problem is that you posed roughly 10 questions, any one of which might warrant a lengthy reply, and you didn't tie any of them to the topic of the thread.

You would have better luck at stimulating discussion if you posed one question, related how it connected to the topic, and then gave at least a brief suggestion of your answer to the question.

If you have a question about the contents of a prior post, use the Reply button below that post and raise that question.

One last bit of advice: let your skin thicken a little. We can get a little rough and tumble here. You'll see exchanges between members that appear to reveal bitter hostility, when in reality, those two members may be quite friendly and respectful.

Don't confuse sharp, aggressive questioning of your arguments with a personal attack.

Stick around. It's fun.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by taiji2, posted 09-11-2014 12:16 PM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by taiji2, posted 09-11-2014 7:43 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 364 of 638 (736652)
09-11-2014 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by taiji2
09-11-2014 7:43 PM


Re: Welcome
taiji2 writes:

I have also seen new members come in and be bullied into silence. I did not perceive the exchange to be friendly and respectful. I understand the concept of a troll on a forum. Don't get into the bullying until one reveals himself as such. I don't think i have earned such treatment yet. jar hit me out of the gate.

That's a fair point, taiji2. I'm not suggesting we are all always fair and respectful, although a few folks here pretty much are.

I'm not, by any means; I have my own triggers, as do jar and many others. However, we have fair-minded moderators, although it is difficult for them to examine every post. I have previously been suspended from this forum for immoderate speech, but not recently.

As I said before, there's often a good bit of rough-and-tumble. In any large group discussing strongly held beliefs in opposition, tempers flare, quick judgments are made...

We are all flawed creatures, yes?

In my experience the best response is to remain calm and focused on your own message.

We do have quite fair-minded moderators. If you feel someone's treatment of you is particularly egregious, you can complain.

Click on the Forums button just under the top banner; you'll see the top section is labeled Board Administration: in the Public Record section, you can examine Suspensions and Bannings to see what kind of conduct was deemed unacceptable.

In Suggestions and Questions, you'll find Report Discussion Problems Here. It is generally considered bad form to lodge complaints in actual discussion threads.

Most of the regular members here have enjoyed brief suspensions--or more--now and then.

As I said, strong beliefs, flawed creatures


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by taiji2, posted 09-11-2014 7:43 PM taiji2 has taken no action

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 396 of 638 (736756)
09-12-2014 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by taiji2
09-12-2014 5:31 PM


Re: Welcome
taiji2 writes:

Something exhibiting total chaos with nothing that could be mistaken for design down to the subatomic level would be a good one to start with.

With you as the arbiter, of course: you see the problem with that, I'm sure.

Similarly, I can challenge you to present one piece of evidence that confounds evolution or atheism or anything else--and I'll let you know when you've succeeded. You wouldn't hold your breath, would you?

In my experience, proponents of ID find design everywhere; it may, like the human knee or lipid processes, be very poor design, but it's embraced as design nonetheless.

How could anyone present something to you that you won't perceive as apparently designed? You are asking your debate opponents to confound your well-established subjective judgment.

That's one reason science does not deal with appearances, but looks much deeper, to where the evidence can be not only perceived but demonstrated, and that demonstration replicated by others.

Tell you what: you prove to me that chaos is the only alternative to design, and then I'll demonstrate some undesigned chaos.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by taiji2, posted 09-12-2014 5:31 PM taiji2 has taken no action

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 556 of 638 (737150)
09-17-2014 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by RAZD
09-16-2014 5:49 PM


Re: why is the sky blue?
Hi, RAZD. I'm donning my Devil's Advocate cap.

It seems to me that your why is simply an infinitely reiterative how: the notion of a First Cause, a Prime Mover, is implicit in your argument. That argument turned out a poor proof of God, since one has no reason to stop anywhere in the causal chain.

Consider Picasso:

RAZD writes:

Even if Picasso said he painted the face blue because he felt like it, that does not answer the question, because now you would have to ask why did he feel like it ... especially when he has used other colors on other occasions presumably because he felt like it: feeling like it has no predictive, and thus no testable, aspect, which means it cannot be investigated by science.

Picasso created art. As a creator, he performed this action in one of two ways--either he was an automaton, merely acting out the sum of his antecedents, or he was, in a free-will sense, a creator.

In the former case, the only obstacle to understanding why he painted the face blue is some necessary sum of data and calculating power. As a thought experiment, I can envision compiling all that can be known about Picasso and using quantum computer-level power not only to explain why he felt like it, but to predict what he felt like next; even what he would have felt like had some inputs differed--or if he had not died; we might even calculate the Picasso canvases-that-never-were. If that calculation entails spooling back to the Big Bang, that is just a larger calculation, not a qualitatively different one.

In the latter case, Picasso as an authentically free creator, your teleological why is instantly satisfied; he felt like it becomes the only possible solution: what series of hows and whys could take you any further? As a being capable of authentic creation, he embodied the why you seek. We could frog-march how all the way back to God and get no better answer.

I should note that Picasso the Creator might well provoke a search for the Creator of Picasso, but then again, where would one stop? If the Tao moved on the face of the nothingness, whence came those? We are, as we have been before, left with gods nested like those little Russian dolls.

Seeking the why, the purpose, occurs to us because we are creatures and thus things to whom purpose is evident and attractive. The ancients lived in a mythopoeic space, where every object and event was purposive. We still exhibit that ancient mind-set when we curse what stubbed our toe or embrace the genetic fallacy on a dark and stormy night...

Purpose is for the living: I think you wish to deny science the power to answer the why because it appears to create space for the deus of the Deist. I don't mind that, but I see no reason to believe it, either.

You say that science cannot answer the question; I don't see why science, reason, or logic should pose it.

You pose it for the same reason Picasso painted that face blue.

AbE: You say science cannot answer why: I think it's the only chance we've got.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2014 5:49 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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