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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 39 of 638 (720038)
02-19-2014 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by dadman
02-19-2014 9:17 PM


Re: For the last time
it is now scientifically proven

Science does not deal in "proof." The highest level of explanation in science is the theory.

So, could you please explain which theory you are referring to so that we may discuss it?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 9:17 PM dadman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 11:02 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 42 of 638 (720046)
02-19-2014 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by dadman
02-19-2014 11:02 PM


Re: For the last time
first of all .. you have to display the three elements of life .. matter / energy and ... xxx

So what is your theory?

And perhaps a refresher on the definition of a theory might help:

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.

Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]

When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 11:02 PM dadman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 11:16 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 44 of 638 (720049)
02-19-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by dadman
02-19-2014 11:16 PM


Re: For the last time
truth is very simple

Truth: This is a word best avoided entirely in physics [and science] except when placed in quotes, or with careful qualification. Its colloquial use has so many shades of meaning from ‘it seems to be correct’ to the absolute truths claimed by religion, that it’s use causes nothing but misunderstanding. Someone once said "Science seeks proximate (approximate) truths." Others speak of provisional or tentative truths. Certainly science claims no final or absolute truths. Source

do you know the third element of life ??

Presumably you will enlighten us?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 11:16 PM dadman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 11:24 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 47 of 638 (720052)
02-19-2014 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by dadman
02-19-2014 11:24 PM


Re: For the last time
The two different quote boxes are formed by "[qs]" and "[/qs]" or "[quote]" and "[/quote]".

Add: also, you can see all formatting in a post by hitting the "Peek" button to the bottom right of the window.

Edited by Coyote, : formatting

Edited by Coyote, : Add


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 11:24 PM dadman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by dadman, posted 02-19-2014 11:35 PM Coyote has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 66 of 638 (720218)
02-20-2014 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by dadman
02-20-2014 11:38 PM


Re: science is your friend
well it does seem to me that the 3rd element is indeed your greatest fear

Have any evidence?

If there is no evidence for it what's to worry?

And if there is evidence for it then science will accept it.

You just have to have evidence. Got any?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by dadman, posted 02-20-2014 11:38 PM dadman has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 103 of 638 (720337)
02-21-2014 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by RAZD
02-21-2014 4:03 PM


Re: science and life
If you want a spider, why are you thinking Corvairs!???

Here's a spider!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 4:03 PM RAZD has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Taq, posted 02-24-2014 3:32 PM Coyote has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 296 of 638 (725549)
04-28-2014 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
04-28-2014 4:19 AM


More nonsense
The Fall is all about human sin, human failure.

"The Fall" is invented nonsense, and represents one of the most evil ideas ever cooked up by the shaman class.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 04-28-2014 4:19 AM Faith has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by RAZD, posted 04-28-2014 12:06 PM Coyote has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 350 of 638 (736563)
09-11-2014 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by taiji2
09-11-2014 10:18 AM


Tracking ideas
James Burke tracked how ideas flow in his TV series, "Connections."

See if you can find that somewhere.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by taiji2, posted 09-11-2014 10:18 AM taiji2 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by jar, posted 09-11-2014 10:37 AM Coyote has seen this message

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 370 of 638 (736702)
09-12-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by taiji2
09-12-2014 5:51 AM


Re: Welcome
My challenge to you is to show me anything in nature that doesn't reek of sophisticated design.

The human knee.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by taiji2, posted 09-12-2014 5:51 AM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by taiji2, posted 09-12-2014 4:21 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 402 of 638 (736767)
09-12-2014 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by taiji2
09-12-2014 4:21 PM


Re: Welcome
taiji2 writes:

My challenge to you is to show me anything in nature that doesn't reek of sophisticated design.

Coyote writes:

The human knee.

I presume this was a joke. It made me smile. If not, I strongly disagree. We are down to opinions I think.

No, this was not a joke. I am once again on crutches for a bad knee, and hoping the other one can hold on while this one heals.

I can't remember how many of my friends have had knee replacement--now that this remedy is possible. One had a bad experience during the first operation and spent 15 days in a coma, but went right back to get the other knee replaced. The "design" was that bad.

There is no way I can accept that the human knee can possibly be argued as an example of intelligent design, or even good design.

On the other hand, the knee is a perfect example of evolution in action--a "just barely adequate" solution to the transition from quadrupedal to bipedal locomotion.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by taiji2, posted 09-12-2014 4:21 PM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by taiji2, posted 09-13-2014 12:14 AM Coyote has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 403 of 638 (736768)
09-12-2014 9:54 PM


Some additional data
I think at this point some evidence on genetic networks and how they are derived might be of help.

Here is an excellent on-line lecture: Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell (University of Washington).

Abstract: Mathematical computer models of two ancient and famous genetic networks act early in embryos of many different species to determine the body plan. Models revealed these networks to be astonishingly robust, despite their 'unintelligent design.' This examines the use of mathematical models to shed light on how biological, pattern-forming gene networks operate and how thoughtless, haphazard, non-design produces networks whose robustness seems inspired, begging the question what else unintelligent non-design might be capable of.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by RAZD, posted 09-13-2014 8:04 AM Coyote has seen this message

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 512 of 638 (737074)
09-16-2014 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by taiji2
09-16-2014 3:39 PM


Logic and reason
does science acknowledge logical and reasonable arguments can exist outside of what science has postulated,theorized, tested, proved, etc..?

Logic and reason are all very well, but both must yield to evidence.

The largest and most well-thought out idea can be slain by a single contrary fact. Likewise, without any evidence that idea is about as valid as propelling a spaceship with angels.

Reading between the lines, it seems that you are trying to argue that "intelligent design" is a legitimate field for science to explore. Great!

Present the evidence and we can get started. (You might start out with evidence for deities, as that would be a logical beginning.)

But beware of those contrary facts that may rear their heads along the way.

And be prepared for the evidence to be subjected to scientific scrutiny.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by taiji2, posted 09-16-2014 3:39 PM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by taiji2, posted 09-16-2014 4:59 PM Coyote has seen this message

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 565 of 638 (737175)
09-18-2014 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by taiji2
09-18-2014 6:43 PM


Arguing over definitions
In the vast majority of debates I have seen on this site, over a number of years, it is creationists who want to change standard scientific terms and who will go on at length in an effort to do so.

It becomes very boring, the more so because it is unnecessary.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by taiji2, posted 09-18-2014 6:43 PM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by taiji2, posted 09-18-2014 7:15 PM Coyote has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 571 of 638 (737182)
09-18-2014 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Percy
09-18-2014 8:32 PM


Definitions again
This is what you have yet to explain, so why not get on with it?

How about this?

He can go over to Faith's blog and they can argue about definitions until the cows come home. Then the winner can come back here and we can get on with the real discussion?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Percy, posted 09-18-2014 8:32 PM Percy has seen this message

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 573 of 638 (737184)
09-18-2014 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by taiji2
09-18-2014 8:42 PM


Re: The Tao
I will leave all you good people to go about whatever it is you do.

If you don't understand intellectually honest debate, look it up.

Sorry if you feel you have to leave.

However, a large part of what we do involves science and the scientific method. That is based on evidence. So far, you have not been able to supply evidence.

And as for being prickly when your view is challenged, welcome to the world of science! That's the way it works.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by taiji2, posted 09-18-2014 8:42 PM taiji2 has taken no action

  
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