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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 638 (720408)
02-22-2014 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by RAZD
02-22-2014 12:42 PM


Re: non-science non-sense
I think breeding still works for asexual organisms.

breeding noun
1. the producing of offspring.

The terminology is problematic for some types of organisms. When one bacteria becomes two, is either one an 'offspring'?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2014 12:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by RAZD, posted 02-23-2014 7:31 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 122 by Meddle, posted 02-24-2014 5:28 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 638 (720447)
02-23-2014 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by RAZD
02-23-2014 7:31 AM


Re: non-science non-sense
NoNukes writes:

When one bacteria becomes two, is either one an 'offspring'?

RAZD writes:

yes

Which one is the offspring? The one on the left?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by RAZD, posted 02-23-2014 7:31 AM RAZD has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Omnivorous, posted 02-23-2014 9:35 PM NoNukes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 638 (724967)
04-23-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Ed67
04-23-2014 8:42 AM


Irony meter hit the peg.
If you can't bring your high school knowledge of DNA to bear on the subject, I suggest you go back and finish high school before you come to the 'big boys' discussion.

Again, does anyone have anything INTELLIGENT to say about the origin of the DNA molecule?
I'll give you all a hint: it has to do with complex, specified information.

Seriously, have you even taken a General Chemistry course? The absurdity of ridiculing someone's discussion of science by posting something even more infantile and unscientific is beyond belief.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 8:42 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:43 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 638 (724984)
04-23-2014 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Ed67
04-23-2014 10:43 AM


By all means, go ahead and school me in the Chemistry of DNA, if you can. So far you're just huffing and puffing.

Not bothering with you. You are obviously an idiot if you think "full of code" and just saying "complex specified information" are anything that needs a rebuttal. I don't believe you are capable of understanding chemistry, and your inability to discuss your position in meaningful terms while mocking others who are trying to do so shows it.

There is no meaningful way to talk about DNA without talking about chemistry, yet you PRATT on with stuff we've heard and discussed here 100s of time as though it is all new. Offline we refer to that as being a dumbass, but I'm too polite to do that here.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:43 AM Ed67 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:57 AM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 202 of 638 (725078)
04-24-2014 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by JonF
04-24-2014 7:55 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
DNA does not fit the definition of a code:

Using the provided definition, a computer program would not consist of code. Perhaps, as is often the case, arguing by dictionary is not so persuasive here.

I think comparing DNA to computer code is more informative. Computer code is written by a designer to specify the details of a computer program, where as a segment of ATCG simply describes parts of a DNA molecule and does not alone mean that someone has designed it.

So yes I agree that the word 'code' is not probative. But your particular line of argument is not productive at showing why.

IDers try hard to get away from 'I know a design when I see it, and complex, specified, information [CSI] and irreducible complexity are just two such attempts.

Ed67 and Dembski's argument is that every system with CSI is designed. But of course the word 'specified' essentially means 'designed' making the argument circular. And the observation does not apply to biological systems, none of which we know a designed origin for anyway.

The flaws and scientific criticism of Dembski's arguments have been well publicized and no one takes this crap seriously anymore. You could not tell that from the discussion here though. One problem is the assumption that CSI cannot have an unintelligent origin is never demonstrated. It is simply hidden in as many layers of obscurity as Dembski can manage. The layers include the bad, uninformed probability calculations and circular definitions.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by JonF, posted 04-24-2014 7:55 AM JonF has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 9:44 AM NoNukes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 238 of 638 (725269)
04-25-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by RAZD
04-25-2014 7:57 AM


Don't be a billy goat gruff
He's in an axe fight ... with an axe to grind ... that is so dull that it can't cut the mustard ...

No. He's a troll. EvC is about the easiest troll target I could imagine, and Ed67 is simply taking advantage of our desire for new creationist/ID meat to chew on.

And every message including yours and the one I am writing now simply feed the troll. Even AZPaul3's was an acknowledgement of irritation.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 7:57 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 10:13 AM NoNukes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 270 of 638 (725418)
04-27-2014 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Capt Stormfield
04-26-2014 11:50 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
t does, however, contain the code for preserving Cod in a barrel. How amazing.

Yes. And for melting ice and freezing ice cream! Who programmed that code?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Capt Stormfield, posted 04-26-2014 11:50 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Capt Stormfield, posted 04-27-2014 2:51 AM NoNukes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 638 (725516)
04-27-2014 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Ed67
04-27-2014 4:07 PM


Wrong. You JUST QUOTED Dembski in saying that a long string of random letters is complex but not specified, disqualifying it as a candidate for design.

Not quite. Not having CSI does not mean not a candidate for design. CSI is not argued by Dempski to detect all designs. For example a monkey wrench is designed but has no CSI because it is not complex. An arrow head might be designed or it might be selected from some naturally created shards of flint. How can we tell when an arrow head is designed?

What does the Dempski mean by the term specified? Can you explain this without requiring a specifier in your definition?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Ed67, posted 04-27-2014 4:07 PM Ed67 has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 311 of 638 (725614)
04-29-2014 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by mike the wiz
04-29-2014 8:09 AM


No, instead I went for the sound conclusion, that both are designed if they both share the elements of design. If you want to read WHY that is the case, here is a link;

Your argument is of exactly the same form as the one Dr. Adequate proposed, and like the one he proposed, it is not valid. One problem is that there are is more than one way to produce similar looking features.

Evolution is perfectly capable of producing figures that look designed. Further, your identification of features of an airplane as being designed are all adhoc. You know ahead of time that an airplane was designed, so any feature of an airplane could be used to build your argument that an airplane is design, despite the fact that you did not actually use that feature to reach your conclusion. Additionally, there is the fact that things which exploit aerodynamics are constrained by that to have features that generate lift. Humans might well have exploit the example of birds regardless of where birds came from. And then one might well note that no bird really operates just like an airplane in any significant fashion.

I could list more counter arguments. But there is really no point to doing so. Your argument is still the same I know design when I see it, cloaked as something different, and the answer is that you don't. You might at best be able to detect man made objects, but you simply are not calibrated to distinguish between evolution and design of biological organisms simply by looking. No one is.

In contrast, for mechanical objects we know apriori that they were not made using the begatting of variation and natural selection process because those things cannot participate in such a process. We have few conclusions to choose from other than man made, which means intelligent design.

Is a beaver dam a product of ID? Why or why not?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by mike the wiz, posted 04-29-2014 8:09 AM mike the wiz has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Omnivorous, posted 04-30-2014 2:00 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 366 of 638 (736674)
09-12-2014 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by taiji2
09-11-2014 7:23 PM


Re: Welcome
Should I respond to those posts as I go, or refer back to post numbers in a single reply?

Your talking about doing a significant amount of work either way, and if you do a good job, you'll get some discussion going. Do whichever is easiest for you.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by taiji2, posted 09-11-2014 7:23 PM taiji2 has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 407 of 638 (736778)
09-13-2014 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by taiji2
09-12-2014 5:51 AM


Re: Welcome
If, therefore, the scientific community has not addressed, studied, and developed supportable theory about ideas, the scope of study required to form any conclusions in the ID debate is flawed.

I want to know what characteristic ideas might have that could make it impossible to judge ID. Can you make up a hypothetical quality that ideas might have that might interfere with our assessment of ID?

Because if you cannot come up with anything, then it seems likely that you it is your objection that is not real.

What we do know about ideas is that they can be conveyed to others, that they can be tested against reality, and that they do not morph into something else when we are not looking. We also know that some subset of those ideas can be expressed in formal language that allow others to reach the same understanding of the ideas that the originator has. Those quantities are all that we need to conduct scientific inquiries.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by taiji2, posted 09-12-2014 5:51 AM taiji2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by taiji2, posted 09-13-2014 4:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 433 of 638 (736848)
09-13-2014 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by taiji2
09-13-2014 4:12 PM


Re: Welcome
Please see my comments in Message 416 as to the relevance of ideas. If that does not answer your questions let me know and I will come back to this post.

I don't think that will be necessary. From your post in 416, I see that I am in the wrong thread.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by taiji2, posted 09-13-2014 4:12 PM taiji2 has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 442 of 638 (736882)
09-14-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by RAZD
09-14-2014 12:14 PM


Re: front end loading -- all the way back to the beginning
Can we test and replicate why an artist chose a particular color for a painting or to distort a shape in a particular way to arrive at a work of art

Yes we can investigate such thing scientifically. Remember that not all scientific investigations require us to replicate at a whim. Cosmology? Geology? Paleontology?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by RAZD, posted 09-14-2014 12:14 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by RAZD, posted 09-14-2014 5:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 465 of 638 (736962)
09-15-2014 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by RAZD
09-14-2014 5:18 PM


Re: why vs how questions and the ability of science to answer them
So how do you test the reasons why Picasso painted the face blue and mangled the face, hands and body?

Picasso is dead. Were he alive you could ask him why he did what he did. You might also look at his other works and see if his answer holds true. You might talk to artists whose work inspired Picasso and you could look at their work as well.

Of course not all artists are dead.

There is no guarantee that your investigation will be successful, of course. But that does not make the investigation non-scientific.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by RAZD, posted 09-14-2014 5:18 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2014 10:19 AM NoNukes has seen this message
 Message 469 by RAZD, posted 09-15-2014 10:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 466 of 638 (736964)
09-15-2014 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by RAZD
09-15-2014 9:06 AM


Re: first you make a star with hydrogen ...
The first stars were pure hydrogen according to the standard mode

This is a bit of an exaggeration. The Big Bang is estimated to have produced about 75% hydrogen, 25% helium, a tiny bit of Lithium and perhaps a bit of Beryllium. How likely is it that the early stars were formed of pure hydrogen?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by RAZD, posted 09-15-2014 9:06 AM RAZD has seen this message

  
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