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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 153 of 638 (724757)
04-20-2014 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by subbie
04-20-2014 12:54 PM


Re: DNA evolves
I'm debunking the idea that you introduced, that of DNA as a blueprint.
So get on with it. So far you have only made assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by subbie, posted 04-20-2014 12:54 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by frako, posted 04-21-2014 6:52 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 161 of 638 (724934)
04-22-2014 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
04-22-2014 11:40 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
"Ringo" writes:
Ed67 writes:
The 'code' is the SPECIFIC ARRANGEMENT of bases along the DNA molecule.
Every molecule has a specific arrangement. (1) There is nothing about the DNA molecule that is unique in that regard; (2) THE CHEMISTRY OF DNA ISN'T FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE CHEMISTRY OF WATER. It does what it has to do. It could be said that (3) life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry.
Hmm... that was a very richly packed reply. I take exception to each of your 3 points above. So I'd like us to unpack these remarks together and look at them separately(pardon the pun).
(1)
"Ringo" writes:
There is nothing about the DNA molecule that is unique in its specific arrangement.
I'd like you to cite your source on this point, please, unless it's your opinion.
(2)
"Ringo" writes:
The Chemistry of DNA isn't fundamentally different from the chemistry of water.
I'd like to see your source on this one, too. This doesn't sound like any water I've seen:
But what, exactly, is DNA? In short, DNA is a complex molecule that consists of many components, a portion of which are passed from parent organisms to their offspring during the process of reproduction. http://www.nature.com/...ure-that-encodes-biological-6493050
(3)
"Ringo" writes:
Life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry.
What makes you think that? That's what Francis Crick hypothesized and disproved in the fifties, isn't it?
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 04-22-2014 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 11:48 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 162 of 638 (724935)
04-22-2014 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by subbie
04-20-2014 12:54 PM


Re: DNA evolves
subbie writes:
Ed67 writes:
quote:
So, you are introducing a new concept.
I am not introducing a new concept. I'm debunking the idea that you introduced, that of DNA as a blueprint.
Ok, call it what you will. Just get on with it. By all means, debunk my idea of DNA as a 'blueprint'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by subbie, posted 04-20-2014 12:54 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:02 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 163 of 638 (724937)
04-22-2014 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by RAZD
04-21-2014 8:38 AM


Did DNA Originate by Evolution?
RAZD writes:
So recipe is a better analogy than code or blueprint.
Ok, this is your own word so all your gang can agree with it lol.
So, do recipes include cooking instructions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by RAZD, posted 04-21-2014 8:38 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 164 of 638 (724938)
04-22-2014 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by xongsmith
04-20-2014 4:59 PM


Re: DNA evolves
xongsmith writes:
KillebrewFan writes:
A blueprint specifies every single dimension and every single detail of a building, from height to floor spacing to wiring and plumbing. DNA doesn't actually specify very much at all. That's not how it functions. It in fact does NOT proscribe every single detail of what an organism is going to look like and does not contain detailed instructions about how to create an organism.
Hmmm. They say that most of DNA is junk. What if those dead zones controlled which cell was which as the zygote grew, then shut themselves off so as appear dead & junk today.
Your point in saying that DNA "does not contain detailed instructions about how to create an organism" is interesting. You are correct.
I recant if I have said that.
What I mean is that DNA contains detailed instructions on how to REPLICATE, or 're-create' an organism. These instructions must have originally come from some cause; they could have come from an intelligent source, as intelligence is known to be sufficient cause for the kind of instructions contained in the 'recipe' of DNA.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Pressie, posted 04-23-2014 6:07 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 166 of 638 (724954)
04-23-2014 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Pressie
04-23-2014 6:07 AM


The Origin of DNA
Pressie writes:
Ed67 writes:
...or 're-create' an organism.
Or salt crystals.
Pressie writes:
DNA is chemistry...
And you show an appalling ignorance of the chemistry of DNA.
If you can't bring your high school knowledge of DNA to bear on the subject, I suggest you go back and finish high school before you come to the 'big boys' discussion.
Again, does anyone have anything INTELLIGENT to say about the origin of the DNA molecule?
I'll give you all a hint: it has to do with complex, specified information. Or you can call it a RECIPE if you want. Just bring your grey matter to bear on the subject PLEASE!

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 Message 165 by Pressie, posted 04-23-2014 6:07 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 9:54 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 167 of 638 (724955)
04-23-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by frako
04-21-2014 6:52 AM


frako writes:
I'm debunking the idea that you introduced, that of DNA as a blueprint.
'So get on with it. So far you have only made assertions.'(ed67)
A blueprint = a design plan or other technical drawing.
DNa is definitively not that
At best it would be an a punch-card-automaton, that produces proteins.
So get on with the debunking. So far you have simply maintained your assertions...
Unless, of course, you're only stating your preference in metaphors?
If so, that explains the lack of reasoned argument. OPINIONS don't need evidence.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by frako, posted 04-21-2014 6:52 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by frako, posted 04-23-2014 9:30 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 171 of 638 (724974)
04-23-2014 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by subbie
04-23-2014 10:02 AM


So much for the Debunking
subbie writes:
Ed67 writes:
By all means, debunk my idea of DNA as a 'blueprint'.
Others here are doing a marvelous job already, and you are ignoring their points. I have no reason to believe I'd be any more successful than they would. You are a troll.
Oooo, I hit a soft spot. I didn't think you had anything intelligent to say about my argument for design...this just proves it.
Any more 'debunkings'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:02 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:16 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 174 of 638 (724979)
04-23-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by frako
04-23-2014 9:30 AM


Is There a Legitimate Argument for Design?
frako writes:
A blueprint would mean that it is a design plan...
Now we're getting warmer... yes, the arrangement of nucleotides on DNA/RNA molecules IS a design plan for the organism. It is a 'recipe' written in base-4 digital code (because of the 4 possible bases in each position, as opposed to binary, which has only 2). Like any recipe, this one had to have an intelligent source, as it was 'written' some time BEFORE life started. Evolution could not have an effect until life began as a whole phenomenon.
Oh, and a the 'blueprint' is a different kind; not one to be read by humans, so it doesn't require paper.
Sure it is a verry complex molecule you could even call it a nano-bot (ie molecular machine). but thats it...Its the same for DNA all chemical reactions just a bit more complicated.
That's exactly true. You are getting to the point. Now the next question:
How did the DNA/RNA NANOBOT come to be 'constructed' so that it could CONTAIN, TRANSMIT AND INTERPRET the instructions to make functional proteins necessary for an organism to live?
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by frako, posted 04-23-2014 9:30 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2014 12:22 PM Ed67 has replied
 Message 184 by frako, posted 04-23-2014 1:20 PM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 175 of 638 (724981)
04-23-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by NoNukes
04-23-2014 9:54 AM


Is there a legitimate argument for design?
NoNukes writes:
"If you can't bring your high school knowledge of DNA to bear on the subject, I suggest you go back and finish high school before you come to the 'big boys' discussion." -ed67
Again, does anyone have anything INTELLIGENT to say about the origin of the DNA molecule?
I'll give you all a hint: it has to do with complex, specified information.
Seriously, have you even taken a General Chemistry course? The absurdity of ridiculing someone's discussion of science by posting something even more infantile and unscientific is beyond belief.
By all means, go ahead and school me in the Chemistry of DNA, if you can. So far you're just huffing and puffing.
Still waiting for an INTELLIGENT, reasoned response to my main argument for design; the existence of a RECIPE embedded in DNA/RNA that requires a cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 9:54 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 10:52 AM Ed67 has not replied
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 11:55 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 181 of 638 (725018)
04-23-2014 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by New Cat's Eye
04-23-2014 12:22 PM


Re: Is There a Legitimate Argument for Design?
CS writes:
Its just chemistry.
It doesn't look very alive to me...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2014 12:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2014 12:49 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 183 of 638 (725022)
04-23-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by ringo
04-23-2014 11:48 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
ringo writes:
What I said was, "It could be said that life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry." Message 160 This is a science-oriented forum and we appreciate rigor, especially when it comes to quotes.
Sorry for the missing ellipsis. It doesn't change the meaning of the quote.
ringo writes:
Ed67 writes:
What makes you think that? That's what Francis Crick hypothesized and disproved in the fifties, isn't it?
I'm not awae that he disproved any such thing. Please explain.
Ok, thanks for asking. Are you aware of the basic course of research that Crick engaged in after finalizing the initial discovery of the double helix?
I have to go hunting for my sources on it, so I'll be a while. I don't want to just go spouting off on my own (nonexistent) authority, but I thought this finding of crick's was quite common knowledge for anyone interested in the history of science.
If so, it won't take me long to find a source... bear with me please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 2:01 PM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 185 of 638 (725028)
04-23-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by ringo
04-23-2014 11:48 AM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
ringo writes:
I'm not awae that he disproved any such thing. Please explain.
Well, here's the mention of the kind of research he was engaged in:
quote:
Crick then concentrated on the biological implications of the structure of the DNA molecule, developing further insights into the genetic code − including the so called 'central dogma' explaining the flow of information from DNA to RNA to protein.
About Dr Francis Crick | Crick
I'll update this post as I find more information...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 11:48 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 186 of 638 (725032)
04-23-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by frako
04-23-2014 1:20 PM


Re: Is There a Legitimate Argument for Design?
frako writes:
Yea we know evolution coulden't have an effect before life started. And this recepie did not need an intelligent source all it needed was a simple replicating molecule or should we call that molecule alive.
Let me get this straight:
You claim that life didn't need an intelligent source to explain its existence. 'all it needs', you seem to be saying, 'is a PRE-EXISTING simple form of LIFE' to evolve from.
Darwinian logic at its best.
On top of that, you claim IN THE PRECEDING SENTENCE that evolution can have nothing to do with the origin of life!
What a disingenuous load of hogwash! That's not even a bad argument, that's an embarrassment.
Shows to what lengths Darwinian propagandists are willing to go...
frako writes:
3 billion years later woalla human beings working it all out.
Darwinian wishful thinking (based on faith) at its best
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by frako, posted 04-23-2014 1:20 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-23-2014 2:10 PM Ed67 has replied
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 189 of 638 (725042)
04-23-2014 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by ringo
04-23-2014 2:01 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
More on the topic of their research:
quote:
In 1953, Watson and Crick published another article in Nature which stated: "it therefore seems likely that the precise sequence of the bases is the CODE that carries the genetical information".[48]
Francis Crick - Wikipedia
They had the common sense to call a spade a spade, and a code a code.
...still looking for more details...
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 2:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 191 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 2:47 PM Ed67 has replied

  
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