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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
Faith
Member
Posts: 32135
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 736 of 824 (749735)
02-08-2015 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 734 by subbie
02-08-2015 12:40 AM


...

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by subbie, posted 02-08-2015 12:40 AM subbie has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18587
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(4)
Message 737 of 824 (749739)
02-08-2015 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 717 by Faith
02-07-2015 9:03 PM


Faith writes:

What you really meant to say is, "American has become hostile to fanatically conservative and paranoid fundamentalist Christians."

Sure, call us whatever you like.

I wasn't calling you names, just calling you out on your distortion. In a country that is nearly 3/4 Christian, to claim there is hostility toward Christians is preposterous. And to claim hostility toward your minority sub-sect of Christianity simply because the rest of the country doesn't share your eagerness for violating separation of church and state is equally preposterous.

I think what most identifies your Christian sub-sect is its lack of the shame and embarrassment gene. You can't just make up how the world really is - the rest of us live in the same world and can tell when you're lying.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by Faith, posted 02-07-2015 9:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by subbie, posted 02-08-2015 7:59 AM Percy has responded
 Message 742 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 11:52 AM Percy has responded

    
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 738 of 824 (749740)
02-08-2015 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 737 by Percy
02-08-2015 7:48 AM


Percy writes:

and can tell when you're lying.

Sadly, we cannot. There's no question that many of their claims about what is happening in the world are wrong, but I've yet to meet anyone who can definitively distinguish between lying and delusion.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the subject, and it's quite possible I'm just being fooled, but the delusions are so widespread and seem to be so genuinely believed that I can't help but believe that at least some people actually think that the world is as they represent it to be. I've known people whom I believe to be good, honest people, who believe the queerest things, and no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise.

We can tell when they are wrong. We can't tell what they actually believe.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 7:48 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 9:19 AM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18587
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 739 of 824 (749741)
02-08-2015 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 721 by Faith
02-07-2015 10:36 PM


Faith writes:

the fear of that kind of thing happening is one of the reasons supporting the exact interpretation of the First Amendment that you disagree with

But I don't disagree with it.

Ouch, whiplash again. As Subbie noted, your interpretation of the First Amendment described in the first paragraph of your Message 709 could not be more different than the Supreme Court's interpretation that Subbie quoted in Message 719. You do disagree with it, or at least you did just yesterday.

Would it be too much to ask for a cessation of denials of things you've said earlier so that we can have at least a modicum of consistency? If you don't want to defend stupid, indefensible positions then stop stating stupid, indefensible positions.

Predicted response, if there is one: "Nothing I've said is stupid or indefensible. What I said was <detailed description of something she definitely didn't say>..."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 02-07-2015 10:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 11:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18587
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 740 of 824 (749743)
02-08-2015 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 735 by Faith
02-08-2015 12:47 AM


Faith writes:

Yes it would "surprise" me because it is not true that MOST Christians thought there was biblical support for slavery.

The strongest Biblical support for slavery comes from Genesis 9:25-27 concerning Noah's curse of Ham on his grandson Canaan after Ham had seen him naked:

quote:
"Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "

Since Canaan settled in Africa, people in Africa were slaves. That was the very common Biblical interpretation for centuries.

But Christianity's interpretation of the Bible regarding slavery has of course evolved along with society. Before the Renaissance most Christians believed the Bible supported slavery:

quote:
"In the early years of Christianity, slavery was a normal feature of the economy and society in the Roman Empire, and this persisted in different forms and with regional differences well into the Middle Ages.[1] Most Christian figures in that early period such as Saint Augustine, accepted slavery as an inevitability whereas some, such as Saint Patrick (a former slave), were opposed to it. Both the Old Testament and New Testament treat slavery as a given, to the extent of (in the case of the Old Testament) laying down regulations for its "just" practice. Historically this has presented a challenge for Christians advocating against slavery." (Christian views on slavery - Wikipedia)

But the most significant collision between opposing schools of Biblical interpretation occurred in the United States when growing differences between North and South on the institution of slavery forced a schism in the Baptist church:

quote:
"By the 1830s, tension had begun to mount between Northern and Southern Baptist churches. The support of Baptists in the South for slavery can be ascribed to economic and social reasons. However, Baptists in the North claimed that God would not "condone treating one race as superior to another". Southerners, on the other hand, held that God intended the races to be separate. Finally, around 1835, Southern states began complaining that they were being slighted in the allocation of funds for missionary work.

"The break was triggered in 1844, when the Home Mission Society announced that a person could not be a missionary and still keep his slaves as property. Faced with this challenge, the Baptists in the south assembled in May 1845 in Augusta, Georgia, and organized the Southern Baptist Convention, which fully supported slavery (though later renounced it in the mid-20th century)." (Christian views on slavery - Wikipedia)


During the Civil War while armies faced each other across battlefields, ministers of North and South faced each other over their Bibles, each citing Biblical arguments for why God either favored or opposed slavery.

No the Bible did not change, cultural forces merely misused it.

You're the poster child for the very point subbie is making. Fundamentalists the world over bark that those in disagreement are misusing religious texts.

So bringing this point back to the topic, Biblical interpretations and religious beliefs are not unchanging. They evolve and develop over time. Religious adherents in this country possess the freedom to practice their religion as they see fit. If they want to be closed and discriminate on any basis, they are free to do so. But when religious people create secular organizations or businesses then they must follow the same laws as everyone else.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:00 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18587
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 741 of 824 (749744)
02-08-2015 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by subbie
02-08-2015 7:59 AM


subbie writes:

Percy writes:

and can tell when you're lying.


Sadly, we cannot. There's no question that many of their claims about what is happening in the world are wrong, but I've yet to meet anyone who can definitively distinguish between lying and delusion.

Agreed. I probably should have said, "...and can tell when you're lying or deluded." Faith makes statements that are at odds with reality and sometimes even of simple logic, and my point is how fruitless this is since the evidence that she is wrong is so tremendously obvious. Her willingness to argue the indefensibly stupid at length doesn't make wrong any less wrong.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by subbie, posted 02-08-2015 7:59 AM subbie has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:04 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32135
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 742 of 824 (749750)
02-08-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 737 by Percy
02-08-2015 7:48 AM


I wasn't calling you names, just calling you out on your distortion. In a country that is nearly 3/4 Christian, to claim there is hostility toward Christians is preposterous. And to claim hostility toward your minority sub-sect of Christianity simply because the rest of the country doesn't share your eagerness for violating separation of church and state is equally preposterous.

Gosh I would have thought that what I encounter at EvC would be evidence enough, and how atheists target us and so on. Looks a lot like hostility to me. But maybe it's really admiration and love, huh? Anyway I did accommodate to your statistic and what you claim wasn't calling me names, to make it clear that it's only my subset of Christians that is subjected to hostility, the ones I consider to be the true Christians of course as against all the others who go by the name but reject most of the Bible and so on. They are often very popular indeed. So I'm quite happy to accept your title for my subset, From now on I expect to refer to my subset fairly frequently as the Fanatically Conservative Paranoid Fundamentalists. It has a ring to it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 7:48 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 750 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 12:52 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32135
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 743 of 824 (749751)
02-08-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 739 by Percy
02-08-2015 8:09 AM


But I don't disagree with it.

Ouch, whiplash again. As Subbie noted, your interpretation of the First Amendment described in the first paragraph of your Message 709 could not be more different than the Supreme Court's interpretation that Subbie quoted in Message 719. You do disagree with it, or at least you did just yesterday.

I should have said I liked it, because I did. I thought it was remarkably neutral as secularist interpretations go, and as I said, that it should defend some of us FCPF's in some situations in which it seems we aren't often defended. Subbie corrected me, however, turns out in his opinion it wouldn't defend us anyway.

What the original First Amendment actually intended may be something else, but I like this one anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 739 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 8:09 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32135
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 744 of 824 (749752)
02-08-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 740 by Percy
02-08-2015 9:10 AM


Using the Old Testament to justify slavery is a perfect example of a misuse of the Bible. Period.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 9:10 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2015 12:16 PM Faith has responded
 Message 748 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 12:31 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32135
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 745 of 824 (749753)
02-08-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Percy
02-08-2015 9:19 AM


Funny, I would have thought I made some good points on this thread. Turns out I'm ******. Oh well, must be whatever I was born with that turned me into a FCPF, right?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 9:19 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 12:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8848
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 746 of 824 (749754)
02-08-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by Faith
02-08-2015 12:00 PM


Remedial Reading for me, please
Percy writes:

"Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "

I read the supposed quotes from the bible that Percy supplied and it seems to me that slavery is right if it is the right people that are enslaved -- that is, they deserve to be. Are they not in the bible? Are they out of context?

I can only read the English supplied so maybe you think the translations are wrong?

How does that not say that slavery is acceptable under the right circumstances?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:18 PM NosyNed has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32135
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 747 of 824 (749755)
02-08-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 746 by NosyNed
02-08-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
It's a prophecy. Prophecies aren't commands.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2015 12:16 PM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 12:54 PM Faith has responded
 Message 769 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2015 2:57 PM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18587
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 748 of 824 (749756)
02-08-2015 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by Faith
02-08-2015 12:00 PM


Faith writes:

Using the Old Testament to justify slavery is a perfect example of a misuse of the Bible. Period.

The charge you're supposedly defending yourself against is that fundamentalists of all stripes around the world always claim that interpretations different from their own are misuses of their religious texts. Instead you're just providing more examples of a fundamentalist doing more of the same.

The fact of the matter is that most Christians disagree with you about separation of church and state, at least as you viewed it around 6 PM yesterday. Now given your recent enlightenment on the First Amendment, have your views changed on what Ken Ham is trying to do regarding employment at his publicly funded ark park

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:53 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18587
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(5)
Message 749 of 824 (749757)
02-08-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by Faith
02-08-2015 12:04 PM


Faith writes:

Funny, I would have thought I made some good points on this thread.

My dear lady, what on earth could have given you such an impression? The only encouragement you have received can only be coming from within your own brain. You continue to spew non sequiturs at an incredible rate. There seems no position too obviously wrong for you to adopt. Correcting your errors is impossible because you commit them far faster than any clarifications or illuminations could ever catch up with. In fact it almost seems that the more grave your error the faster you issue more minor errors as a cloud of distraction.

If you ever figure out how Ken Ham isn't conspicuously and undeniably trying to evade separation of church and state to his own financial advantage, and if you also figure out how to express it in clear and unambiguous terms that go beyond saying, "I trust that Ken Ham has good reasons," then you please let us know.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18587
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 750 of 824 (749759)
02-08-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by Faith
02-08-2015 11:52 AM


Faith writes:

Anyway I did accommodate to your statistic and what you claim wasn't calling me names, to make it clear that it's only my subset of Christians that is subjected to hostility...

No, I also said you were wrong about experiencing hostility, that it isn't hostility to refuse to give in to your every whim.

From now on I expect to refer to my subset fairly frequently as the Fanatically Conservative Paranoid Fundamentalists. It has a ring to it.

The great problem for you is that the label contains neither exaggeration nor inaccuracy. You exhibit fanaticism and paranoia in nearly every post. You're right, everyone else is wrong, we hate you and persecute you because you're right, we'd better change our ways, and if we don't heed this warning then we're going to hell. Thank you Mrs. God. Can we expect a declaration of Christian Jihad on us sometime soon?

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 11:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 1:04 PM Percy has responded

    
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