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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 766 of 824 (749785)
02-08-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by Percy
02-08-2015 2:09 PM


No no no no no, I LOVE the label and am going to continue to use it because it so perfectly characterizes the view from the Opposition. It also gives me a way to distinguish my group from all the other "Christians" that make up the biggest percentage of those who claim the name, without having to deal with the usual stuff I get when I call us the True Christians. So FCPFMN, that's who I am. Love it.
A fundamentalist Christian adheres to the traditional orthodox reading of the Bible, which prescribes meekness and patience and kindness and dying passively for the faith and that sort of thing. Not that I'm good at it personally but that's what my Authority tells me to do. Fundamentalist Islam on the other hand prescribes killing infidels so that "moderate" Muslims who reject such teachings are like "liberal" Christians who reject a lot of the Bible, only the effect isn't the same. There really is no such thing as a "fundamentalist" mindset, all it means is adhering closely to what your religion teaches.
There's no point in saying any of that though, I've said it before and all it does is bring on more objections and long arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 2:09 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 776 by Percy, posted 02-08-2015 4:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 767 of 824 (749786)
02-08-2015 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 765 by PaulK
02-08-2015 2:14 PM


Re: First Amendment flimflam
The First Amendment has never given anyone carte blanche to break the law by claiming a religious justification. It was never intended to. And I note that the Oregon bakers were DISOBEYING the Bible anyway...
Really you shouldn't pontificate on things that you don't understand. Which includes pretty much everything, I'm afraid.
I do understand that you're upset that people refuse to obey you, dare to criticise you, even commit the "sin" of telling truths that you don't like. But the fact that you are upset about these things rather indicates that the problem is with you.
Yup, revisionist interpretation of the Bible for starters, and new invented laws that make a cause celebre out of normalizing and legalizing what used to be regarded as sin --at least a violation of Nature --, and now the legal system and all the LGBT thugs, and even Brits who have no business commenting on any of this, can persecute us to their heart's content and call it righteous and legal and good. I congratulate the devil, he's done his work well.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2015 2:14 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2015 2:48 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 768 of 824 (749788)
02-08-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by Faith
02-08-2015 2:28 PM


Re: First Amendment flimflam
quote:
Yup, revisionist interpretation of the Bible for starters, and new invented laws that make a cause celebre out of what used to be regarded as sin and now the legal system and all the LGBT thugs and even Brits who have no business commenting on any of this can persecute us to their heart's content and call it righteous and legal and good.
In FACT, Faith, you've never come up with a Biblical justification for refusing to provide a cake for a gay wedding.
The laws are NOT new, the only change is to extend their protection to gays. And you accepted that the laws are Constitutional even when in conflict with religious belief. So you've got no honest basis for complaint there either.
And in reality I was quite willing to have a reasonable discussion of the rights and wrongs of the law. Which in your mind justifies calling me a "Nazi"
Really, rant and rave and bully all you like. It won't help you against the truth.
quote:
I congratulate the devil, he's done his work well
Sucking up to your master won't help either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 2:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 3:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 769 of 824 (749789)
02-08-2015 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Faith
02-08-2015 12:18 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
And how does this explain this away? You seem to agree that it is a curse as much or more? than a prophecy. In any case, whoever is speaking here seems to think it is a darned good thing that these bad 'uns are going to be slaves. Does it or not say that some people should be slaves? That is why I need some help in reading the English; I read it as saying there are circumstances when a human should be enslaved you seem to be saying it doesn't say that so I am asking for help in reading the supplied English.
Then you yourself point out how the NT makes suggestions( commands? prophesies?) about how to treat slaves. I'd have to see the exact quotes but at first blush that seems to me to be condoning slavery? Does it? If it doesn't why have rules about how to treat them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 3:07 PM NosyNed has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 770 of 824 (749790)
02-08-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 768 by PaulK
02-08-2015 2:48 PM


Re: First Amendment flimflam
In FACT, Faith, you've never come up with a Biblical justification for refusing to provide a cake for a gay wedding.
Weird, I thought I had. Must be one of those things that requires Spiritual Discernment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2015 2:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2015 3:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 771 of 824 (749792)
02-08-2015 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 770 by Faith
02-08-2015 3:00 PM


Re: First Amendment flimflam
quote:
Weird, I thought I had. Must be one of those things that requires Spiritual Discernment.
Then please provide it. A link to the post will be sufficient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 3:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 772 of 824 (749793)
02-08-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 769 by NosyNed
02-08-2015 2:57 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
Trying to humanize a universal practice that is embedded in the economic life of a culture and is SO universal there is no way to ask people to give it up, is not to my mind the same thing as condoning it; it's simply doing the best you can with a necessary evil. And it's the OLD Testament, not the New, that offers the humanizing rules.
abe: About the cursing of Canaan the point is that it will simply happen, MAKING it happen, which is what justifying slavery on the basis of the curse would be, is something else and I don't see how it can be justified at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2015 2:57 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 777 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2015 4:37 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 773 of 824 (749794)
02-08-2015 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 760 by Faith
02-08-2015 1:41 PM


Faith writes:
I get sloppy...
Sloppy? My dear, don't flatter yourself. Your errors extend far beyond mere sloppiness.
...but I don't care since you misread everything anyway.
If you feel the need to lash out you might at least strive to do so accurately. I didn't twist anything you said, I only referred to things you actually said, and if I actually misread you then I apologize and request that you explain again. The original point was that you missed the irony of responding to a message pointing out that fundamentalists worldwide claim their religious texts are misused by claiming that your religious text is being misuesd (in this case about slavery).
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 760 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 1:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 774 of 824 (749796)
02-08-2015 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Faith
02-08-2015 1:46 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
Faith writes:
I'm not missing anything, I'm just trying to get out of this madhouse without leaving too much unanswered.
I made some on-topic comments in the message you're replying to, and you've not touched on them at all. Has the irony escaped you of leaving questions answered while complaining that you don't want to leave too much unanswered.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 1:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 775 of 824 (749798)
02-08-2015 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 763 by Faith
02-08-2015 2:05 PM


Re: First Amendment flimflam
Faith writes:
If it were true that it protects Fundamentalist Christianity then the Oregon bakers would not have been driven out of business and subjected to harassment by LGBT vandals and thugs and fined a ruinous punitive amount for simply obeying the Bible.
Subbie explained this to you already. Why does this have to be explained again? Couldn't you at least acknowledge that what you're saying has already been rebutted, then add something more to discussion instead of just repeating your original position yet again?
Anyway, repeating the rebuttal, baking is a business, not a religion. There are no First Amendment protections for bakers. Bakers are not permitted to discriminate on the basis of religious conviction. This protects everyone, including fundamentalist Christians. It doesn't matter whether you're a Christian baker or an Islamic baker or a Hindu baker or a Buddhist baker, you cannot discriminate on the basis of religious conviction. Actually, you cannot discriminate, period.
Nor the Colorado baker fined, nor the four or five other Christian business owners abused, whose First Amendment protection has been similarly violated,...
Whether you're being sloppy or are just confused, you're very wrong. The bakers' First Amendment rights could not possibly have been violated. Did you perhaps mean their civil rights?
No, there's no hostility in this country to Christians, meaning of course FCPFMN Christians. And I'm sure you'll go on being blind to it for a LONG time to come.
No one's blind to it. What happened happened, but you want to acknowledge only half the story. The full story is that the bakers expressed intolerant anti-gay sentiments and experienced backlash for it, which I hope was prosecuted for those actions that were illegal. But you're not being consistent again. It's okay for the bakers to express messages of intolerance and hatred because the Bible says its okay, but when anyone else objects to the intolerance and hatred then it's not okay, it's hatred for fundamentalist Christians.
In other words, you're saying your (the plural your) hatred is okay, other people's not so much.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 2:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 776 of 824 (749799)
02-08-2015 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Faith
02-08-2015 2:21 PM


Faith writes:
No no no no no, I LOVE the label and am going to continue to use it...
You can embrace the label, or your can complain about the label, but you cannot in any rational way do both.
A fundamentalist Christian adheres to the traditional orthodox reading of the Bible, which prescribes meekness and patience and kindness and dying passively for the faith and that sort of thing. Not that I'm good at it personally but that's what my Authority tells me to do. Fundamentalist Islam on the other hand prescribes killing infidels so that "moderate" Muslims who reject such teachings are like "liberal" Christians who reject a lot of the Bible, only the effect isn't the same.
You're making precisely the mistake I cautioned you not to make. Yes, some branches of fundamentalist Islam advocate murder. And some branches of fundamentalist Christians advocate murder, like the Ku Klux Klan and anti-abortion killings. But those are the kinds of specifics I cautioned you to avoid.
What's unique about the fundamentalist mindset isn't the specific beliefs, but the raw focus on belief at the expense of almost all else.
There's no point in saying any of that though, I've said it before and all it does is bring on more objections and long arguments.
If you wouldn't keep changing your mind then this wouldn't be so difficult. First you think our interpretation of the First Amendment is bollix, then you don't. First you embrace a label, then you complain about it, then you embrace it again. Who can keep track in all your confusion? You certainly don't.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 2:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 777 of 824 (749801)
02-08-2015 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by Faith
02-08-2015 3:07 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
Trying to humanize a universal practice that is embedded in the economic life of a culture and is SO universal there is no way to ask people to give it up, is not to my mind the same thing as condoning it; it's simply doing the best you can with a necessary evil. And it's the OLD Testament, not the New, that offers the humanizing rules.
Thanks for the correction. It hints to me that some how the OT is less than the NT. I guess I am reading too much into it.
So this God inspired document, (what is the expression "God breathed", God dictated, ... I dunno) is unable to be lifted above the dirt and squalor of the time of writing? So it a necessary evil to the author of the bible?
To help a bit; who is the one speaking in the quotes that Percy gave?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 3:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 5:06 PM NosyNed has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 778 of 824 (749803)
02-08-2015 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 777 by NosyNed
02-08-2015 4:37 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
So this God inspired document, (what is the expression "God breathed", God dictated, ... I dunno) is unable to be lifted above the dirt and squalor of the time of writing? So it a necessary evil to the author of the bible?
God wisely takes people where they are. They wouldn't listen to Him if He told them to give up their slaves.
To help a bit; who is the one speaking in the quotes that Percy gave?
The cursing of Canaan was said by Noah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2015 4:37 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 781 by subbie, posted 02-08-2015 6:10 PM Faith has not replied
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 Message 785 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 10:18 AM Faith has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 389 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 779 of 824 (749804)
02-08-2015 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 778 by Faith
02-08-2015 5:06 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
God wisely takes people where they are. They wouldn't listen to Him if He told them to give up their slaves.
He told them to cut of their foreskin and they listened i think slaves are a bit lower on the i dont think i should listen to that scale.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Faith, posted 02-08-2015 5:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 780 of 824 (749805)
02-08-2015 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 777 by NosyNed
02-08-2015 4:37 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
To help a bit; who is the one speaking in the quotes that Percy gave?
All too often in the New Testament it is Paul & Peter or as more often heard, Peter & Paul.
Ephesians 6 writes:
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Colossians 3 writes:
Instructions for Christian Households
18Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
21Fathers,c do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.
22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
1 Peter writes:
Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society
11Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
18Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
It is often interesting to look at the context of the quotes as well as just the mined part.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2015 4:37 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
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