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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 796 of 824 (749842)
02-09-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 12:52 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
You're still not making sense.

God created us with a insatiable sex-drive but forbids us to have impure sexual thoughts.

Marriage is His solution to that. abe: But also when our impulses are out of control that's just part of the fallen nature due to original sin plus personal sin, and all that is what Jesus died to pay for. /abe

But you know what, not having slaves is too hard so that's cool - have at them.

I'm sorry, but this has to be one of the most retarded arguments you could make.

You are comparing apples and oranges it seems to me. Our personal sin life doesn't have anything to do with our means of daily survival, such as in the economic structure that depended on slavery in those days. Jesus died to pay our personal sin debt. But the world takes a long time to correct its economic and political situation, and all that is a completely different level from personal individual sin anyway..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 12:52 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by NosyNed, posted 02-09-2015 1:27 PM Faith has responded
 Message 799 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 1:57 PM Faith has responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8848
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 797 of 824 (749844)
02-09-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by Faith
02-09-2015 1:00 PM


Sin No More! But only if it isn't inconvenient.
You are actually saying that if it is too inconvenient or economically difficult then we shouldn't decry slavery too much????

You God is one of relative morality? It was not great but okish when it was too difficult to do away with and since the advancement of science and the industrial revolution made slavery economically obsolete (in some of the world) it is no longer ok at all?

Of course, if someone today could demonstrate economic hardship then it would be okish again by your standards. I guess some pimps running slaves as whores would support you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 1:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 1:43 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 798 of 824 (749846)
02-09-2015 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by NosyNed
02-09-2015 1:27 PM


Re: Sin No More! But only if it isn't inconvenient.
You are actually saying that if it is too inconvenient or economically difficult then we shouldn't decry slavery too much????

Not at all. I'm saying that in ancient times it was too much a part of life to make an issue of it. It wasn't the right time. The time came much later in history.

You God is one of relative morality? It was not great but okish when it was too difficult to do away with and since the advancement of science and the industrial revolution made slavery economically obsolete (in some of the world) it is no longer ok at all?

it was never "OK," it was merely tolerated as a necessary evil and laws were given to make the slaves' lives easier.

God puts up with all kinds of things because of human weakness, for which we should be grateful. As Jesus explains in the Sermon on the Mount He put up with frivolous divorce by the Jews, for instance, because of "the hardness of their hearts," but that "God hates divorce" and Jesus is now commanding us against divorce. God also "winked at" rampant idolatry among the heathen due to their ignorance, says Acts 17:30, but "now commands every man to repent."

Of course, if someone today could demonstrate economic hardship then it would be okish again by your standards. I guess some pimps running slaves as whores would support you.

But of course I'm saying no such thing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by NosyNed, posted 02-09-2015 1:27 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 799 of 824 (749848)
02-09-2015 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by Faith
02-09-2015 1:00 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
Marriage is His solution to that.

And yet, according to you, he was incapable of providing a solution to slavery. Well, short of: "don't be too mean to them, but you can still own people."

It would have been pretty easy to just have the owners adopt the slaves as children into their family. That way, they still have to be obedient to their parents but they're not actually owned like cattle.

You are comparing apples and oranges it seems to me. Our personal sin life doesn't have anything to do with our means of daily survival, such as in the economic structure that depended on slavery in those days.

Okay, then condemn owning slaves at the personal level.

Really, there's so many ways out of this. The fact that slavery is condoned only shows, to everyone but the worst of book-worshipers, that we're dealing with human limitations here and not stuff that an omnipotent and benevolent god would actually decree.

Your post-hoc rationalizations only go to show the lengths you'll go to in order to defend your unconditional love for ink on paper.

ABE:

I'm saying that in ancient times it was too much a part of life to make an issue of it. It wasn't the right time.

And yet today, people still can't stop themselves from having impure sexual thoughts outside of marriage.

So now is not the right time for that.

it was never "OK," it was merely tolerated as a necessary evil and laws were given to make the slaves' lives easier.

But we cannot tolerate impure sexual thoughts outside of marriage as a necessary evil today...

Sorry, but this is pure crap.

Edited by Cat Sci, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 1:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 2:00 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 800 of 824 (749849)
02-09-2015 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 1:57 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
As a matter of fact adoption into the family was an option given in the Law.

Of course we're dealing with human limitations, but we're also dealing with a merciful God who takes them into account and doesn't impose rules on us that are too hard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 1:57 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 2:02 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 801 of 824 (749850)
02-09-2015 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 800 by Faith
02-09-2015 2:00 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
but we're also dealing with a merciful God who takes them into account and doesn't impose rules on us that are too hard.

Absolutely false.

One of your selling points is that we simply cannot stand up to God's morality and that we're all fallen into such a sad state that it is impossible for us to obey the rules because they are too hard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 2:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 2:06 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 802 of 824 (749851)
02-09-2015 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 801 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 2:02 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
It would help if you'd try to get things into their right context. We will certainly answer for all our sins UNLESS we trust in Jesus to save us. God has provided everything we need for our weaknesses, including power to overcome them if we trust in Him but certainly the payment of our sin debt. I really don't know what you are so enraged about. You are continuing to lump personal sin together with the cultural economic system that depended on slavery. Those are two entirely different things.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 2:02 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 2:29 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 803 of 824 (749854)
02-09-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by Faith
02-09-2015 2:06 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
God has provided everything we need for our weaknesses, including power to overcome them if we trust in Him but certainly the payment of our sin debt.

But again, according to you, he was incapable of providing the ancients a way to overcome their weakness in needing slaves.

Well, except for: "Just wait a really long time until your economy doesn't need them anymore and then I'll get around to stopping condoning it"

And what about the people who actually were the slaves? Fuck them, amirite?

You are continuing to lump personal sin together with the cultural economic system that depended on slavery.

There's no decree against persons/individuals owning slaves either!

Face the facts, Faith: The argument that the god of the Bible condones slavery because he couldn't do anything about it is complete and utter bullshit.

You should fall back on your other out: There's got to be some kind of explanation but you just don't know what it is yet. The Lord works in mysterious ways.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 2:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 2:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 804 of 824 (749855)
02-09-2015 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 2:29 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
But I'm not making any of this up, it's information I've absorbed from years of Bible study and sermons and so on, not that I'm sure I have it all right but I'm sure I'm in the ballpark.

But again, according to you, he was incapable of providing the ancients a way to overcome their weakness in needing slaves.

But that's a nonsensical attempt to make it equivalent to personal moral sin, which I guess is one way you are confused about all this. Owning slaves was part of the economy, it had nothing to do with personal sin. Someone owed you money and you had some animals that needed tending, they came and tended your animals to pay off the debt. You fed and housed them. If they stuck around a long time and raised a family they might choose to make the relationship permanent and in effect become part of your family. Or, after the debt was paid, or perhaps in a Jubilee year when all debts were to be cancelled, you released them to go make their own lives. Maybe you are thinking of it too much like the racist slavery of America?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 2:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 3:13 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 806 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-09-2015 4:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 805 of 824 (749857)
02-09-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Faith
02-09-2015 2:39 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
But I'm not making any of this up

I didn't say you were.

it's information I've absorbed from years of Bible study and sermons and so on, not that I'm sure I have it all right but I'm sure I'm in the ballpark.

Its still a bullshit argument. Owning other people is not okay - ever.

Like I said, its just a post-hoc rationalization.

It would have been great if the Bible condemned slavery, but it doesn't. So, your team has to come up with some explanation for why it didn't.

The excuse that god couldn't do anything about it is pathetic. Stop making that argument.

But that's a nonsensical attempt to make it equivalent to personal moral sin, which I guess is one way you are confused about all this. Owning slaves was part of the economy, it had nothing to do with personal sin.

Economies don't own slaves, people do.

And still, there is no personal moral sin identified in owning another person. There should have been.

Thou shalt not own slaves.

Geez, to throw a whole 'nother five words on there would have been sooo difficult.

Someone owed you money and you had some animals that needed tending, they came and tended your animals to pay off the debt. You fed and housed them. If they stuck around a long time and raised a family they might choose to make the relationship permanent and in effect become part of your family. Or, after the debt was paid, or perhaps in a Jubilee year when all debts were to be cancelled, you released them to go make their own lives.

Maybe if they were Hebrews males... females and non-hebrews were not treated in that way.

Another way you got slaves was when your nation's army conquers an enemy's land and you take all the surviving people and make them your slaves.

When you get them home you dress them up and pamper them and give them back rubs and make for an all around pleasant experience... er, wait, no, that's not what happened.

What the Bible says is that if you beat your slave to death it is a problem, but if they get better in a day or two then that's all good because they are your property.

That is reprehensible. All of your moral-relativism combined cannot make up for that, no matter how hard you try.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 2:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-09-2015 4:19 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 806 of 824 (749862)
02-09-2015 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Faith
02-09-2015 2:39 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
Owning slaves was part of the economy, it had nothing to do with personal sin.

Does that apply to other things? In Nevada, it's OK to own a whorehouse, so long as it's not in Clark County. If I do so, does this have "nothing to do with personal sin", it's just "part of the economy" of Nevada? Would you/God not hold me personally responsible if I was a brothelkeeper? Would you/God say that it's just "part of the economy" if I do so, and that it's not a "personal moral sin"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 2:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 807 of 824 (749863)
02-09-2015 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 805 by New Cat's Eye
02-09-2015 3:13 PM


Re: Remedial Reading for me, please
Economies don't own slaves, people do.

Like Cat Sci said. Even if you live in an economy where many people own slaves, it's not obligatory to do so. And even when something is obligatory, Christians have chosen torture and death over (for example) worshiping the Roman Emperor as a god. But there was never any such obligation to own slaves. Any Christian could always have said "Nuh-uh, I won't own slaves". So how is it not a personal sin if a particular person chooses to do so? If our society allowed us to own slaves, and I personally choose not to own slaves, and Fred personally chooses to own slaves, why am I not personally in the right on this issue, and Fred personally in the wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-09-2015 3:13 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 808 of 824 (749879)
02-09-2015 10:20 PM


"Owning people is not OK. Ever."

I guess nobody here has any sense of history whatever. I believe perhaps a Roman or a Greek philosopher may have considered that slavery is a bad thing once upon a time, although I'm not entierely sure about that, but neither the Romans nor the Greeks gave up their slaves. It's been a pretty universal practice throughout history and across cultures. And then, guess what, BASED ON THE BIBLE it was finally condemned in modern times, and yet it is the God of the Bible you are all attacking.

Here's how the thinking goes about this interpretation you reject. Since slavery was finally abolished on the teachings of the Bible, about humanity's being made in the image of God, about God-given liberty, about loving one's neighbor, about equality based on the common ancestors of all humanity in Adam and Eve, and so on and so forth, we understand that it is not approved by God.

That then raises the question that has been raised here, why He didn't do away with it back in Bible times. And the only answer to that, considering that it is NOT approved by Him, is that there had to have been practical reasons. God is fair, God is prudent, God is reasonable. Since this is just a possible interpretation perhaps a better one is possible, but this one really does make a lot of sense based on the known facts.

abe: as for the other question about individuals, I'm guessing but I believe that fewer and fewer Christians owned slaves after the early years, for the very reasons given. How it got established again in Christendom much later is a question. But since the Bible doesn't outright condemn slavery and since some Old Testament passages have been used to justify it, perhaps that's the reason.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by DrJones*, posted 02-09-2015 10:29 PM Faith has responded
 Message 821 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2015 1:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1876
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 809 of 824 (749881)
02-09-2015 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by Faith
02-09-2015 10:20 PM


And the only answer to that, considering that it is NOT approved by Him, is that there had to have bee practical reasons

Practical reasons? your god is so limited that is he is bound by practical reasons?

God is fair, God is prudent, God is reasonable.

But apparently couldn't be bothered to outlaw slavery.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 10:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by Faith, posted 02-09-2015 10:36 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32153
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 810 of 824 (749883)
02-09-2015 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by DrJones*
02-09-2015 10:29 PM


"Bound?" No, I said He's prudent and reasonable, He isn't going to do something to wrench a whole society into ruins even for the best of reasons, besides which as I started out saying, the people would not obey such a law, it would hit them as too absurd and it would wreck their relationship with God completely, which didn't go too well down the centuries anyway.

And again, all ye who think you are above God, remember again that NO SOCIETY ANYWHERE EVER abolished slavery until it was abolished on the basis of the Bible. If it hadn't been for the Bible you'd all be happily living with slavery and justifying it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by DrJones*, posted 02-09-2015 10:29 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by jar, posted 02-09-2015 10:41 PM Faith has responded

    
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