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Author Topic:   and these people vote?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 31 of 86 (716227)
01-13-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by dronestar
01-13-2014 12:58 PM


So to confirm, you do not agree with Caffiene that tourist and travelers ALL have equal rewarding experiences, okay, check.
Neither said this. Caffeine made a humorous remark that people that call themselves travellers are, to paraphrase, pretentious.
Ringo said that some people may find travelling with a group of others may be more meaningful than seeing a mountain up close, and that the meaning of the experiences are subjective.
a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest
What is a deeper experience?
For instance, most of the time I holiday in Britain. I go camping with a 100 or so friends and family and we play music, sing songs and dance through the night. Is this deeper experience than my honeymoon where we toured central Europe? Is it a deeper experience than my wife's time working in India? What about when I travelled from Atlanta through Alabama to Louisiana and spent time with my family there? If I went to Everest and got frostbite would this be deeper than any of that? How are we quantifying depth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by dronestar, posted 01-13-2014 12:58 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by dronestar, posted 01-13-2014 3:16 PM Modulous has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 32 of 86 (716235)
01-13-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Modulous
01-13-2014 1:37 PM


hey Mod, nice to see you posting again.
Mod writes:
Caffeine made a humorous remark that people that call themselves travellers are, to paraphrase, pretentious.
That was humorous? Sounded more like sour grapes to me. A bitter utterance from a person sandwiched in between two other tourists, one with a garlic bologna sandwich, the other with a perspiration dysfunction, in the back of a tourist bus with the window stuck down near the hot asphyxiating exhaust, I wager. Yeaaah, I guess the 'humor' was lost on me, because of the more obviously wrong part that stood out . . .
caffeine writes:
A 'traveller' is someone who does the same thing whilst pontificating about how much more significant and meaningful their experience is than typical tourists.
caffeine writes:
A 'traveller' is someone who does the same thing . . .
"Does the SAME THING."
This is the part that I have been trying to highlight. A TYPICAL tourist might take a bus ride to the base of Everest. Where a Everest climber would need to get training for several months with technical gear and trainer, do specific exercise, pay tens of thousands of dollars in fees and insurance, make out a last will, blah, blah, blah. And then, if lucky, would have his goal realized by standing on top of the world. It specifically seems Caffiene believes a 'tourist' would have the EXACT same preparation and experience as ascending to the top of Everest.
Well, no, the two experiences are not the 'same thing,' isn't the right Mod? Or would you argue this specific point?
Mod writes:
I go camping with a 100 or so friends and family and we play music, sing songs and dance through the night. Is this deeper experience than my honeymoon where we toured central Europe? Is it a deeper experience than my wife's time working in India?
You are counterarguing like Ringo, comparing apples and orangutans. Try this specific example:
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.
Of the five people I described, which one will ordinarily have the deepest experience (however you want to qualify it)? Yes, I already conceded rare exceptions, so please, what is the rule and what is the exception?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 01-13-2014 1:37 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 01-13-2014 4:13 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 34 by caffeine, posted 01-14-2014 6:55 AM dronestar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 33 of 86 (716239)
01-13-2014 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by dronestar
01-13-2014 3:16 PM


hey Mod, nice to see you posting again.
Hiya!
I'm returning to university to study soon, so I might not be posting regular again.
Also - I thought it might amuse you that I applied for a job at the BBC recently. I didn't get it.
That was humorous?
I didn't say it was funny
"Does the SAME THING."
I appreciate that they do different things and have differing experiences. However, what is the 'thing' that caffeine was referring to? 'goes to see a place different from where they live for recreational purpose'. They might go in a different way and do different things when they get there, but they both go and see a place different from where they live for recreation.
Of the five people I described, which one will ordinarily have the deepest experience (however you want to qualify it)?
I appreciate the experiences will be qualitatively different but I'm not sure how one would quantify depth. I'm sure 'travellers' (not people that live in caravans etc) tend to have more interesting (to me) stories to tell, is that how we're measuring it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by dronestar, posted 01-13-2014 3:16 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 11:27 AM Modulous has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 34 of 86 (716255)
01-14-2014 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by dronestar
01-13-2014 3:16 PM


That was humorous?
Well, it amused me briefly. You've managed to take the humour out back into a dark alley and beat it to within an inch of its life though. Thanks for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by dronestar, posted 01-13-2014 3:16 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 11:29 AM caffeine has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 35 of 86 (716277)
01-14-2014 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by dronestar
01-13-2014 12:58 PM


dronester writes:
(Third time, . . .would love to see the reference to a bus ride up to the TOP of EVEREST, link please)
Have you ever heard of the concept of humour?
dronester writes:
So to confirm, you do not agree with Caffiene that tourist and travelers ALL have equal rewarding experiences, okay, check.
Did caffeine say that? I think it's pretty obvious that you can't measure the quality of people's experiences accurately enough to compare them.
dronester writes:
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.
Unless the "traveller" and the "tourist" and the "television-watcher" and the "child" and the "comatose person" are all the same person, your comparison is meaningless.
dronester writes:
You are presenting apples and orangutans.
You're the one who's comparing them. I'm the one who says you can't compare them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by dronestar, posted 01-13-2014 12:58 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 11:40 AM ringo has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 36 of 86 (716279)
01-14-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
01-13-2014 4:13 PM


Mod writes:
I'm returning to university to study soon, so I might not be posting regular again.
Okay, try to be a special guest poster when your time permits.
Mod writes:
I thought it might amuse you that I applied for a job at the BBC recently. I didn't get it.
Sorry, at any rate, that would be the BBC's loss.
Mod writes:
I didn't say it was funny
Oh well, try Ringo's posts, apparently, they are chucked full of jocularity, . . . (says him).
Mod writes:
what is the 'thing' that caffeine was referring to? They might go in a different way and do different things when they get there, but they both go and see a place different from where they live for recreation.
The difference between visiting the base of Everest and the summit of Everest is as different as lightning and a lightning bug.
Mod writes:
I'm sure 'travellers' (not people that live in caravans etc) tend to have more interesting (to me) stories to tell, is that how we're measuring it?
Why do you think that is probably true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 01-13-2014 4:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Modulous, posted 01-14-2014 11:42 AM dronestar has replied
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2014 2:05 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 37 of 86 (716280)
01-14-2014 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by caffeine
01-14-2014 6:55 AM


caffeine writes:
Well, it amused me briefly. You've managed to take the humour out back into a dark alley and beat it to within an inch of its life though. Thanks for that.
I also make a terrific 4-alarm chili.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by caffeine, posted 01-14-2014 6:55 AM caffeine has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 38 of 86 (716281)
01-14-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
01-14-2014 11:07 AM


RingO writes:
Have you ever heard of the concept of humour?
Well, my idea of humour is a juxtaposition of ideas told with impeccable timing. But I admit, that may not be for everyone.
RingO writes:
I think it's pretty obvious that you can't measure the quality of people's experiences accurately enough to compare them.
"accurately enough"???
Okay, so, if you really want to argue that the GENERAL experiences of a comatose person CAN be just as rewarding as a person who climbed Everest, be my guest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 11:49 AM dronestar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 39 of 86 (716282)
01-14-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by dronestar
01-14-2014 11:27 AM


The difference between visiting the base of Everest and the summit of Everest is as different as lightning and a lightning bug.
I don't think that's quite true, but nevertheless, I agree they are different (Maybe the difference between a Tesla Coil and a thunderstorm). However they share some commonalities. It was two such things that caffeine seems to be saying are common to both (eg they both involve travelling to other places)
I don't read him as saying a package holiday to the Algarve is the same as white water rafting in some Amazonian tributary, just that they both involve going somewhere else for fun. Neither the amount of fun, nor the depth of the experience were equalized by his words.
I have to say, your reaction to his words kind of work as verification of the truth behind the jest....
I'm sure 'travellers' (not people that live in caravans etc) tend to have more interesting (to me) stories to tell, is that how we're measuring it?
Why do you think that is probably true?
It's difficult to explain why you have certain tastes. I'll give a singular answer to a complex question: Novelty. There is more 'new' in such tales, or at least more differences between stories. While it was a wonderful experience eating at the UFO restaurant in Bratislava, fundamentally telling it would be telling a story about a restaurant meal at a restaurant with a novel location. I think a story about removing a leech or hiking twenty seven miles to a hospital because a friend had developed a fever have more characteristics of appealing narrative.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 11:27 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 12:20 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 86 (716283)
01-14-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by dronestar
01-14-2014 11:40 AM


dronerster writes:
Okay, so, if you really want to argue that the GENERAL experiences of a comatose person CAN be just as rewarding as a person who climbed Everest, be my guest.
So you have no response at all to the point that you can't measure "rewarding"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 11:40 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 12:08 PM ringo has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 41 of 86 (716284)
01-14-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
01-14-2014 11:49 AM


RingO writes:
So you have no response at all to the point that you can't measure "rewarding"?
Err, Ringo, . . . is this humour too?
. . . because you are contradicting yourself. From this:
RingO writes:
I think it's pretty obvious that you can't measure the quality of people's experiences accurately enough to compare them.
To this: In message Message 25, you actually go and compare the quality of experiences:
RingO writes:
Just meeting the other people on the bus might be more meaningful for many people than seeing yet another mountain up close.
So, IF YOU can compare the experiences or rewards of a traveler and a tourist, THEN is stands that YOU might also compare the experiences of a traveler and comatose patient.
I am still confident my argument stands:
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 12:19 PM dronestar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 86 (716286)
01-14-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by dronestar
01-14-2014 12:08 PM


dronester writes:
. . . because you are contradicting yourself. From this:
RingO writes:
I think it's pretty obvious that you can't measure the quality of people's experiences accurately enough to compare them.
To this: In message Message 25, you actually go and compare the quality of experiences:
RingO writes:
Just meeting the other people on the bus might be more meaningful for many people than seeing yet another mountain up close.
So, IF YOU can compare the experiences or rewards of a traveler and a tourist, THEN is stands that YOU might also compare the experiences of a traveler and comatose patient.
Nope. No contradiction.
You quoted the word "YOU" but you ignored it. I said that you (dronester) can't measure the quality of (other) people's experiences. In Message 25 I suggested that a person can compare his own experiences.
I can compare my own experience with chocolate ice cream to my own experience with ballroom dancing and decide which I like better. YOU can not make that comparison for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 12:08 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 12:36 PM ringo has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 43 of 86 (716287)
01-14-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Modulous
01-14-2014 11:42 AM


Mod writes:
However they share some commonalities.
Yes, I agree. Like there ARE also commonalities (though diminishing) in my example:
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.
Mod writes:
. . . nor the depth of the experience were equalized by his words.
Hmm, I think there is more than just an implied 'depth of experience' in his words:
caffeine writes:
A 'traveller' is someone who does the same thing whilst pontificating about how much more significant and meaningful their experience is than typical tourists.
Mod writes:
I have to say, your reaction to his words kind of work as verification of the truth behind the jest....
Yeah, I know. In taking this debate, I have chosen to look like a pompass ass. (seems like the decent thing to do would not draw public attention to this off-topic aside Mod!!!)
Mod writes:
I'll give a singular answer to a complex question: Novelty.
Well, I suppose that would be one reason that Caffeine's humorous quip is wrong.
Edited by dronester, : (seems like the decent thing to do would not draw public attention to this off-topic aside Mod!!!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Modulous, posted 01-14-2014 11:42 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 44 of 86 (716289)
01-14-2014 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
01-14-2014 12:19 PM


RingO writes:
I said that you (dronester) can't measure the quality of (other) people's experiences.
No. Wrong, wrong, and . . . wrong. We (everybody) can and do measure the quality of people's expereinces. Example:
You (Ringo) are a school history teacher. Kinda fed up with kids, and looking forward to retirement, (just giving your character motivation). You want the kids to study famous explorers this week. You have the opportunity to get one of two people to give a speech to the class. One of them is recently ressurrected Sir Edmund Percival Hillary, first man to summit Everest. The other option is a brocoli salesman (and recent comatase patient) named John Smith.
Based on their experiences, which do you choose? (BTW, they both are asking for the exact same speaking fee.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 01-15-2014 2:07 PM dronestar has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 45 of 86 (716295)
01-14-2014 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by dronestar
01-14-2014 11:27 AM


The difference between visiting the base of Everest and the summit of Everest is ...
... on its own unmeasurable. If both are the biggest experiences in a persons life and they have done what they can do to maximize it, then I see them being equal in value.
If the person at the base has managed to get as far as he is able, they are old and feeble but it has been a goal on their bucket-list, and it is their first time ever, it is a major experience.
If the person at the top has been up there 100 times guiding people, it isn't a major experience for him, it's business as usual.
If a Tibetan visits Qomolangma it is a spiritual experience, and would be deeply meaningful no matter how far up they got.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 11:27 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by dronestar, posted 01-14-2014 2:53 PM RAZD has replied

  
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