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Author | Topic: Two types of science | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Hi marc9000,
Do you believe in the principal of falsification of a theory?
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined:
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I was just thinking about this earlier today. There is for example one type of science that observes how the constants of the universe are finely tuned to allow for life. Tweek them just a little bit in either direction and life is not possible. Then there is the other type of science that insists that the speed of light and the nuclear decay rates must have varied in the past. Clearly these two types of science contradict each other.
Oh wait, these are two types of creation science.My bad.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined:
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Yes there are many types of contradictory creation science aren't there?
But the OP is concerned with dividing real science into two types. The type that posses no threat to his particular flavor of creation science, and the type that falsifies the same. The third type you mentioned may soon be falsified as well. It is this process of falsification that must be stopped otherwise there will not be as much variety among people and their beliefs as previously. Surely this cannot be good for America and the political process (However, it's fine for Canada). Social parties will not be as robust. As people become more alike they will tell the same jokes, etc. We must put a stop to this kind of communism, otherwise very soon the world will be following the same trajectory that it would have been following had Hitler won the war! And don't get me started on AI and robots. They will take over the world. In short Arnold will be back with a vengeance!! I have to rest now.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Sure, but I'd have to see how it's defined - if there's any trickiness involved in just what the principle of falsification is. No trickiness marc, it's straight forward enough.
For something to be considered science, it is supposed to be something that the scientific method is applicable to. Here's the first paragraph at Wikipedia that defines the scientific method; quote:The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as: "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."[3] Scientific method - Wikipedia The bolded parts refer to falsification. So, to be considered science an idea has to be falsifiable by definition. So out with creationism and/or ID as science. It's not by definition.
I think it's a difference in character, when the number of angles of exploration is so low that testability and falsifiability become weakened to the point of non-existence. After all, that is the reason the concept of Intelligent Design has failed in court cases. Why does the number of angles matter in falsification. All it requires is one. ID has none, zero angles of falsifiability. If someone is accused of rape and a DNA analysis clears them, they are cleared. The prosecutor doesn't come back with, "Yeah, but that is evidence from just one angle."
I think it's relevant because if the application of the scientific method is weak enough, then other sources of knowledge (like mathematical improbability, or historic writings) would become comparable.
If the application of the scientific method isn't applicable then there really isn't any other source of knowledge that is going to add anything to our knowledge base of what happened in the past. Chemistry happens based upon the nature of the elements and molecules involved in reactions, the intrinsic forces of nature of matter. Misapplications of probability also result from considering the outcome of evolution to have been "the goal" of the process. Historic writings disagree with each other just like various versions of creation science. You're welcome to pick and choose and believe what you like but it isn't going to be scientific.
Other things that are considered science, such as conclusions about what happened millions of years ago, or what's going on hundreds or thousands of light years away, the scientific method can only vaguely, or partially be applied. You are not a YEC so I assume you refer to evolution rather than the age of the earth. So let's tentatively accept you viewpoint and consider it. We have the creator placing animals upon the earth or fashioning them from the dust, whatever your particular view is, while the continents slowly divide and move about causing the raising of the ocean floor and subsequent changes in the environment. This causes some animals to go extinct. But rather than those which are able to survive evolving into various new forms, you have God coming down again to create new animals and spread them about. As time passes and the environment changes and more extinctions occur God continues to do this again over eons of time. To what end? Why? God could have created the earth in the final desired state and created appropriate animals to inhabit that environment from the start. Faith's world view makes more sense than your own. What has happened light years away is visible to the eye so I take it that it is the purported distances you dispute? How old do you take the universe to be marc? You have to answer that before I can comment further. For example if the universe were 6,000 years old Adam and Eve would have looked up into the night sky and would not have seen any stars. The starlight had no time to reach them yet. At the end of the first millennium the light from stars up to 1,000 light years away would be reaching the earth. At the end of the 2nd millennium the light from stars up to 2,000 light years away would reach earth. New stars would constantly be popping into view.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
On my thread he said he didn't accept the age given by science but neither the short age demanded by ICR, that that was an area where he believed they were in error. He never committed to a specific age though that I am aware of.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined:
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Hi marc,
That may be so but I think most of the posters on this forum are quite familar with ID and have no need to parrot anyone else. I was excited by it the first time I heard of it. I thought there was something to it. But after studying it out and looking at both sides of the arguments I began to understand the flaws in ID and why it doesn't really explain anything at all. You can have any belief you like so why is science a threat? It looks for natural explanations. What of it? If natural explanations are short of what really happened don't you have faith that science will fail to find natural explanations? And if it finds those explanations aren't you curious why that is? Don't you really want to know what can be known? Is it really that traumatic? Can't your beliefs evolve with new information? And if some choose to eliminate beliefs altogether can't you still befriend them? As pointed out the flagellum has been explained. There has also been found gears in some hopping insect legs but they lack the refinement expected from design. And of course the sensors in our eyes are backwards so that the nerve connections get in the way of the image. But the designer got that right with the octopus. ID is not falsifiable because it is a non testable statement of belief about what happened. In that sense it is like last Thursdayism. It could be true but it makes no real difference that can be detected in any manner from the natural explanation. Why do you care that your beliefs are not considered to be science? You don't accept science anyhow. You describe the reaction of the science community as a knee jerk reaction to Behe. I don't believe that at all. I think initially all ideas get a fair audience and then they get picked apart. Once that process has taken place they will get rough treatment for sure, in the same way that perpetual motion machines get short shrift. It's no longer a new or novel idea. It's been debunked already. Move along. You then talk of the fact that more liberals accept science than conservatives. So? You like the talk of conservatives about religion I take it? It's just talk or don't you follow the scandals?
Concerning your statement that I bolded, secular demands and questions of God's actions can be demanded by anyone all day, if they reduce God to the status of a human, an earthly ruler etc. Lots of the mainstream U.S. population doesn't consider humans to be superior enough to do that, and most Christian denominations heed the plain text of the Bible about the wisdom of not doing it.
I quoted this because I'm not sure of your meaning. Are you saying that you think that God did create animals then the environment changed and most went extinct so God then created more animals and they went extinct etc or do you simply find it offensive to think and ponder about what God may or may not have done? Your last comment about another time dimension I don't agree with at all. Science doesn't forbid what may be true about what we have not yet discovered about reality. It simply is an ongoing process of learning. It did not forbid dark matter before it was discovered. But by the same token it did not endorse it either before there was some rational for its existence. I don't accept the idea that science has any agenda to push atheism although I can accept that individuals may have that agenda. Are you not an individual with a religious agenda? No one is hunting you down or up in arms over your choice of what to believe. Can you not tolerate the existence of people with differing viewpoints from your own? Then you end on intelligent design again. It may be a topic new to you but it is not to the scientific community. It has already been evaluated and found wanting. Your concern seems to be that science is about or rather not about reality as you believe it to be. And so what? Time to censor it? Really? How would that work? Are you not the next tyrant taking us back to the dark ages in such a scenario? You didn't mention global warming in this post. Have you seen the video "Chasing Ice"? Extreme Ice Survey - A program of Earth Vision Institute - Extreme Ice SurveyWhat happens to the temperature after the phase change is complete? Personally, I hope I don't live long enough to find out.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Much of your response seems to center around the founding of our country, limited government, and freedom. This is a forum for debating evolution vs creationism.
the ever increasing scientific whims about global warming and other environmentalist hysteria.
The SHTF when we are forced to deal with the reality of overpopulation, eh?
By asking for some balance in atheist science
Not censor it, balance it.
OK, gotcha. So which items from this list are we to use to balance science?
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
No overpopulation and no man made global warming. Thanks for the correction.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2871 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
To stop these crazy liberals from enacting measures that reduce pollution, seek alternative energy sources, minimize harm to non-human species? Oh what a miserable world this would be if that happened :sarcasm: Have you ever heard the phrase "Give me liberty or give me death"? Is that just a talk-radio joke, or do you think it was actually said during deliberations of the U.S. founding? If you believe it happened, what do you think inspired someone to be that passionate about liberty? Well you(mankind) might be given the 2nd option in that choice.
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