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Author Topic:   The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 76 of 342 (717990)
02-03-2014 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:40 PM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Are those few quotes all you have?
Bs'd
You can find more HERE
And the deception that those quote mines employ is outline here:
Quote Mine Project: "Lack of Identifiable Phylogeny"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:40 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 77 of 342 (717993)
02-03-2014 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:27 PM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Now please be kind enough to explain to me which part of my quote is wrong.
You missed some parts in the quote it would be like me quoting the bible:
There is no god. Now that sentence pops up in the bible prove to me i quote mined it.
The most important part that you missed in your quote was this.
Rather than challenge well-entrenched evolutionary theory, palaeontologists tacitly agreed with their zoological colleagues that the fossil record was too poor to do much beyond supporting, in a general sort of way, the basic thesis that life had evolved.
That is not basically true, that's a lie. The fossil record shows that new species pop up suddenly, without any connection to supposed ancestors.
Let me quote you Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, the way you like to quote people.
that the fossil record ..... beyond supporting, in a general sort of way, the basic thesis that life had evolved.
Or so you think.
Nope so experimental data shows
Lizards Released and Stranded on Islands Show Evolution at Work | Live Science
But if you where to find fossils of the ancestral species and all the 14 new species people like you would scream show me the missing link the 14 lizards just poped up from no where.
What is generally called "micro-evolution" is in fact recombination of existing genetic material. There is a limit to the amount of genetic material, therefore there is a limit to how much a certain species can change.
Whats the limit of mutation or changes in that genetic material?
They will stop to do so, as was found out during the research into mutation breeding:
http://www.weloennig.de/...of-Law-of-Recurrent-Variation.pdf
"In accord with the law of recurrent variation, mutants in every species thoroughly examined (from pea to man) − whether naturally occurring, experimentally induced, or accidentally brought about − happen in a large, but nevertheless limited spectrum of phenotypes with either losses of functions or neutral deviations. Yet, in the absence of the generation of new genes and novel gene reaction chains with entirely new functions, mutations cannot transform an original species into an entirely new one. This conclusion agrees with all the experiences and results of mutation research of the 20th century taken together as well as with the laws of probability. Thus, the law of recurrent variation implies that genetically properly defined species have real boundaries that cannot be abolished or transgressed by accidental mutations."
Um so this law does it exist anywhere lese but Lnings imagination. It has ben cited 4 times well by him and no one else.
The whole thing boils down to how much radiation, or chemicals you can expose a plant to before it dies. And are there any changes visible in the phenotype. Yeah cutting edge science right there
Includes references to Behe with his long discredited Irreducible complexity, and also Dembski with his no free lunch of course, Plugging the best ID stars
The paper is basically a con job to convert the gullible creationists, im surprissed it got published at all even if it was in the Research Signpost
37/661 (2), Fort P.O., Trivandrum-695 023, Kerala, India

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:27 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 78 of 342 (717994)
02-03-2014 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by shalamabobbi
02-03-2014 1:52 PM


another creationist on the run
I see you've disabled comments on your linked site. You are wiser then you at first appear.
Or running scared from facing reality.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 79 of 342 (717995)
02-03-2014 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:14 PM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Hi Eliyahu,
About the part of your message from where you say "I'll say something about them" up until where you say "If you want me to say more about the fossiles, just let me know", isn't that all just unattributed cut-n-pastes from the web? I can't tell which particular sites because what you quoted appears at literally dozens of creationist websites.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:14 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 11:06 PM Percy has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 80 of 342 (717996)
02-03-2014 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 7:41 AM


your argument has been refuted - deal with the argument
However, the fact remains: The fossil record shows that evolution never happened.
Refuted in Message 5. Yawn.
You apparently are incapable of either replying to, or understanding, this.
Repeating your assertion does not make it any more valid. It just make you delusional.
Deal with the evidence that refutes your argument or accept that it is refuted ...
... or continue to babble in the corner.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 81 of 342 (717997)
02-03-2014 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by frako
02-03-2014 12:32 PM


Re: Evolution IS a blind watchmaker
Saddly it seams the uneducated are being selected for in our evolution. Probably because they either do not know what contraception is or think its evil.
It is evil, just ask these folks.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 342 (717998)
02-03-2014 2:34 PM


Martin Luther
Eliyahu's dishonesty in this thread alone is enough for Martin Luther to write a whole 'nother book:

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 83 of 342 (717999)
02-03-2014 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:14 PM


Still wrong - ignoring evidence does not make it go away
The fossil record flatly fails to substantiate this expectation of finely graded change.
And curiously, you have been told that this is not the general expectation, that even Darwin suggested alternatives and reasons for it.
Plus this was shown to be outright false in Message 5:
quote:
web.archive.org/web/19990203140657/gly.fsu.edu/tour/article_7.html
quote:
EVOLUTION AT SEA COMPLETE FOSSIL RECORD FROM THE OCEAN UPHOLDS DARWIN'S GRADUALISM THEORIES
Tony Arnold and Bill Parker compiled what may be the largest, most complete set of data on the evolutionary history of any group of organisms, marine or otherwise. The two scientists amassed something that their land-based colleagues only dreamed about: An intact fossil record with no missing links.
"It's all here--a virtually complete evolutionary record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this group of organisms has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."
Punctuated equilibrium holds that new species may arise fairly quickly (over thousands instead of millions of years) from small animal populations that somehow become isolated. Intermediate stages are too fleeting to become fixed in the fossil record--thus the conspicuous gaps or so-called missing links. (Darwin blamed the "imperfection in the geological record" for the gaps in the fossil record.)
But in the near-perfect record exhibited by the forams studied at FSU, the highly touted Eldredge-Gould theory of punctuated equilibrium apparently doesn't work. The record reveals a robust, highly branched evolutionary tree, complete with Darwin's predicted "dead ends"--varieties that lead nowhere--and a profusion of variability in sizes and body shapes. Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendents. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion.
oops.
There you have a fossil record of actual gradual evolution over time from 65 million years ago to today, complete with intermediates and other aspects predicted by evolution.
Your claim is falsified -- shown to be false -- invalidated -- refuted.
In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another
This too was shown to be an outright false statement in Message 5:
quote:
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/pelycodus.html
quote:
The dashed lines show the overall trend. The species at the bottom is Pelycodus ralstoni, but at the top we find two species, Notharctus nunienus and Notharctus venticolus. The two species later became even more distinct, and the descendants of nunienus are now labeled as genus Smilodectes instead of genus Notharctus.
As you look from bottom to top, you will see that each group has some overlap with what came before. There are no major breaks or sudden jumps. And the form of the creatures was changing steadily.
oops again eh?
This image shows smooth transitions from generation to generation, it shows "arbitrary speciation" (where difference occur sufficient to make the population different from the ancestral population through phylogenic evolution) and it shows "absolute speciation" where a breeding population divides into two distinct species.
Again, your claim is falsified -- shown to be false -- invalidated -- refuted.
The fossil record itself provided no documentation of continuity - of gradual transition from one animal or plant to another of quite different form.
And this too has been shown to be outright false in Message 63:
quote:
When we look at fossils like the Therapsids we not only see a progression from reptile jaw and ear to mammal jaw and ear, we see several intermediate forms where the jaw is double jointed -- one at the reptile location and one at the new mammal location. Functional intermediates.
quote:
The reptiles, as we have noted, have one bone in the middle ear and several bones in the lower jaw, and mammals have three bones in the middle ear and only one bone in the lower jaw. On the other hand, the jaw joints in the reptile are formed from different bones than they are in the mammalian skull. ...
... it can be clearly seen in a remarkable series of fossils from the Triassic therapsids. The earliest therapsids show the typical reptilian type of jaw joint, with the articular bone in the jaw firmly attached to the quadrate bone in the skull. In later fossils from the same group, however, the quadrate-articular bones have become smaller, and the dentary and squamosal bones have become larger and moved closer together. This trend reaches its apex in a group of therapsids known as cynodonts, of which the genus Probainognathus is a representative. Probainognathus possessed characteristics of both reptile and mammal, and this transitional aspect was shown most clearly by the fact that it had TWO jaw joints--one reptilian, one mammalian: ...
In a slightly later group, known as the ictidosaurians, the mammalian part of the double jaw joint seen in Probainognathus was strengthened, while the old reptilian part was beginning to become reduced in size. In describing a member of this group known as Diarthrognathus, paleontologists Colbert and Morales point out: "The most interesting and fascinating point in the morphology of the ictidosaurians (at least, as seen in Diarthrognathus) was the double jaw articulation. In this animal, not only was the ancient reptilian joint between a reduced quadrate and articular still present, but also the new mammalian joint between the squamosal and dentary bones had come into functional being. ...
Thus, the fossil record demonstrates, during the transition from therapsid reptile to mammal, various bones in the skull slowly migrated together to form a second functional jaw joint, and the now-superfluous original jaw bones were reduced in size until they formed the three bones in the mammalian middle ear. The reptilian quadrate bone became the mammalian incus, while the articular bone became the malleus. ...
This is the process of evolution demonstrated in spades in the fossil record.
Again, your claim is falsified -- shown to be false -- invalidated -- refuted.
The fact that you have chosen to repeat these assertions after Message 5 and Message 63 without demonstrating that either Message 5 or Message 63 are in any way false, shows an intellectual dishonesty and a person that is arrogantly ignorant of reality, incapable of honest debate.
If you are going to argue against a world of evidence I suggest that you become familiar with that world first.
But you've made your mudpile now, and you can wallow in it to your hearts content and enjoy the view as much as you like. The real world will progress happily without you, unaffected in any way by your opinions and beliefs.
We know your claims are false, we know that you have lied, and we know that you have no argument other than old cherry-picking quote-mines and tired false innuendos.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:14 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 84 of 342 (718001)
02-03-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 12:58 PM


Authority
You say that relying on authority is a "logical fallacy". Well that statement of you is the logical fallacy. Or you must be of the opinion that it is better to rely on laymen in scientific issues...
No, I didn't think so.
OK, so who to believe about paleontology? The layman Eliyahu, or the paleontologists?
"Evolution is both a scientific fact and a scientific theory. Evolution is a fact in the sense that life has changed through time. In nature today, the characteristics of species are changing, and new species are arising. The fossil record is the primary factual evidence for evolution in times past, and evolution is well documented by further evidence from other scientific disciplines, including comparative anatomy, biogeography, genetics, molecular biology, and studies of viral and bacterial diseases." --- The Paleontological Society
"The fossil record of vertebrates unequivocally supports the hypothesis that vertebrates have evolved through time, from their first records in the early Paleozoic Era about 500 million years ago to the great diversity we see in the world today. The hypothesis has been strengthened by so many independent observations of fossil sequences that it has come to be regarded as a confirmed fact, as certain as the drift of continents through time or the lawful operation of gravity." --- Society of Vertebrate Paleontology

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 85 of 342 (718002)
02-03-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:40 PM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Bs'd
You can find more HERE
Enjoy!
BfD
I've seen the fossil record, something you cannot claim. I studied it intensely for several years for my Ph.D. exams.
Your use of quote-mined quotations as "evidence" does not impress me.
But that's pretty much all creation "science" has to offer.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:40 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 02-03-2014 4:53 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 104 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 11:27 PM Coyote has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 86 of 342 (718005)
02-03-2014 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 12:33 PM


The fossil record conclusively demonstrates evolution - over and over and over
I got them from here and there and everywhere. Some I checked in the original publications, I think I checked all of 'm in the Talk Origins Archive, and they are all totally correct.
Fail.
Do you know what it is like to submit an article to a peer reviewed journal (pick a science of your choice -- I won't say expertise as you haven't exhibited any)?
And I know that one of your references is false.
There is no "sin of omission", because the context does not alter the meaning of the quotes.
The context of the scientific papers show that what was discussed was gradualism vs non-gradualism, the context of the scientific papers does NOT show that evolution has not been observed anywhere in the fossil record, and the context of the scientific papers does not lead to the conclusion that evolution has never been observed in the fossil record.
The context does not alter the meaning of the quotes when you deal with them honestly.
If you think different, then prove it; give the context and show that they mean something else.
Message 5, Message 63 and Message 83 ALL show evolution occurring in the fossil record in several ways.
What you don't seem to understand is that these FACTS in the fossil record showing evolution occurring eviscerate your argument no matter how many quotes you stand up on cardboard figures.
Again, science is not run by opinion, it is run by evidence and testing. Every fossil find is a test of evolution and not one fossil has invalidated the theory of evolution:
The Theory of Evolution (ToE), stated in simple terms, is that the process of evolution over generations, and the process of divergent speciation, are sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the fossil record, from the genetic record, from the historic record, and from everyday record of the life we observe in the world all around us.
This has been tested and tested and tested and not one test has shown up the slightest discrepancy.
Again I observe your inability\unwillingness to deal with the evidence of evolution in the fossil record that I have provided, and your intellectually shallow attempt to side-step this and pretend that these posts do not exist.
Your readers will know that your lack of response to the evidence is inadequate at best, and clearly exhibits self-delusion.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 12:33 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 87 of 342 (718006)
02-03-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Coyote
02-03-2014 3:40 PM


quote-mines can never disprove evolution
Your use of quote-mined quotations as "evidence" does not impress me.
But that's pretty much all creation "science" has to offer.
It certainly is all I-lie-to-you has to offer, based on his repeated posts on this thread and his failure to engage the evidence that eviscerates his claims.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Coyote, posted 02-03-2014 3:40 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 88 of 342 (718007)
02-03-2014 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by RAZD
02-03-2014 4:53 PM


Re: quote-mines can never disprove evolution
Your use of quote-mined quotations as "evidence" does not impress me.
But that's pretty much all creation "science" has to offer.
It certainly is all I-lie-to-you has to offer, based on his repeated posts on this thread and his failure to engage the evidence that eviscerates his claims.
Looks like he's here to witness, not to engage in debate.
Like some other creationists we've seen, their beliefs are not open to question or change no matter what the evidence shows. They're here to preach, not to learn.
It is truly sad to see minds so twisted shut. I can't imagine any deity favoring such, except maybe Apate (q.v.).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 02-03-2014 4:53 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 342 (718015)
02-03-2014 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Coyote
02-03-2014 5:29 PM


Nothing can ever disprove evolution
The fact is that NOTHING can ever disprove evolution. It's made of Silly Putty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Coyote, posted 02-03-2014 5:29 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 90 of 342 (718017)
02-03-2014 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
02-03-2014 6:28 PM


Re: Nothing can ever disprove evolution
The fact is that NOTHING can ever disprove evolution. It's made of Silly Putty.
The are a lot of things that could either disprove or seriously rearrange the current theory of evolution.
But, unfortunately for you, creationists are not the ones likely to come up with those things.
If there are changes required in the theory of evolution it will be scientists who discover them. Creationists will, as usual, be sitting on the sidelines still fighting against Darwin, as if discrediting him in some manner would damage the theory of evolution as it has evolved 150 years later.
And if scientists make changes in the theory of evolution, that theory will only be stronger than ever.
That's the way real science works, as opposed to the creation "science" you are apparently more familiar with.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 6:28 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 02-03-2014 10:25 PM Coyote has replied

  
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