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Author Topic:   SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 39 of 614 (718619)
02-07-2014 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
02-07-2014 7:52 PM


Re: Let's use an example to explore this further
Obviously we have to hypothesize that the pre-Flood world produced tree rings at a greater rate.

With no evidence. And you claim science is bad?

In fact the idea is that there weren't even seasons back then,

Again, no evidence.

so the trees just grew according to some internal clock of their own,

Again, no evidence.

and when the climate changed after the Flood the production of rings would have been tied to the seasons.

No evidence for either the flood or the change in how rings are laid down.

If the scientific conclusion contradicts the Bible, we assume the fault is in the science.

But then you claim it is science. You should be disqualified from ever having an opinion within science because you don't accept the scientific method, and you have no evidence.

As far as the discussion about the prehistoric past goes, you are interpreting the tree ring count on the basis of uniformitarian principles,

For which we have evidence.

but you have no way of testing or proving whether your principles apply past a certain point, you simply assume they do.

Wrong, as usual. We do have evidence. You just refuse to see it.

You call it proof when it's nothing but the usual speculative guesswork.

No, we call it evidence, hypothesis, and theory. Scientists don't use the term "proof" as that is a very specialized term limited to very specialized uses. Amateurs and creationists use that term, as they don't know any better. It is an instant give-away for a lack of training in science, or a complete disregard for the scientific method.

If things were appreciably different before the Flood, as we believe, then your assumptions don't hold water. As it were.

But there is no evidence for a flood, hence no way things could have been different before. And your belief is not evidence, nor in any way related to the scientific method.

After the above comments you dare criticize science for not having data, making unwarranted assumptions, and coming to faulty conclusions? What a joke!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 02-07-2014 7:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 02-07-2014 8:54 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 43 of 614 (718625)
02-07-2014 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
02-07-2014 8:50 PM


Then stop calling the ToE "Fact."

We don't call the theory of evolution a fact. We call it a theory.

However, it is a fact that organisms and populations evolve. That is a fact which has been demonstrated in many ways.

The theory of evolution seeks to explain that, and many other facts.

Once again, through your lack of study and understanding of science--really, your outright rejection of science--you are getting your terms wrong. It makes for a much more difficult debate when you use incorrect terms.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 02-07-2014 8:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 44 of 614 (718627)
02-07-2014 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
02-07-2014 8:54 PM


Re: Let's use an example to explore this further
No you do not have evidence for your uniformitarian principles. That's an assumption, period.

Uniformitarianism is not a "principle," nor is it an assumption. It is an observation.

One that you don't like but can't come up with evidence to counter.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 02-07-2014 8:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 51 of 614 (718691)
02-08-2014 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
02-08-2014 10:58 AM


Re: How about forensic science?
Well yes, reconstructing-thing-A-in-the-past is always going to be slightly weaker evidence than seeing-thing-A-in-the-present.

Creationists' problem with "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science has nothing to do with evidence or method or anything else.

The only reason creationists have any interest in this issue is that they hate the results shown by certain branches of science and are out to discredit those results any way they can.

Besides, "its just a theory" and "teach the controversy" failed, so its on to something else.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-08-2014 10:58 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 53 of 614 (718693)
02-08-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by mike the wiz
02-08-2014 11:37 AM


Re: How about forensic science?
The reason why evolution has the burden of proof on it, is because you are saying that billions of diversified complex morphologies are related, but I'm not. I'm saying that the reality you see, humans begetting humans, is simply the reality that has always been.

But evolution has met the burden of proof, beginning with early studies of morphology, then of fossils, and all of that now supported by DNA.

Humans as "always been" is not supported by the evidence. We go back in time to archaic humans, various Homo species, Australopithecus etc. all the way to primates and earlier.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mike the wiz, posted 02-08-2014 11:37 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 64 of 614 (718706)
02-08-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Parasomnium
02-08-2014 1:29 PM


Re: How about forensic science?
What good is putting a dead rat under the bowl?

How do you know its dead?

Maybe its Shroedingers rat?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Parasomnium, posted 02-08-2014 1:29 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Parasomnium, posted 02-08-2014 1:42 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 67 of 614 (718711)
02-08-2014 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dr Adequate
02-08-2014 3:28 PM


Re: How about forensic science?
But people like Ham want to divide science not according to the nature of the evidence, but according to the time when the thing it's evidence for occurred.

They want to divide science into those they agree with and those they don't.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-08-2014 3:28 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 156 of 614 (731887)
07-01-2014 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
07-01-2014 6:50 AM


Re: Siccar Point
But manifestly geological ideas can be tested. They can be tested by looking at the evidence.

Not if the evidence has to be interpreted, which Siccar Point does.

You seem to think that "interpreted" means "automatically wrong" or something.

Or, maybe to be more precise, "automatically wrong if I don't like it."

Again, you have no business trying to do science. You're so far afield you shouldn't even attempt to think about science!

In fact, what you are doing is exactly the opposite of science!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 6:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by herebedragons, posted 07-01-2014 10:25 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 161 of 614 (731896)
07-01-2014 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
07-01-2014 11:07 AM


Amen!
The state of geology today is mostly a matter of radiometric dating. Otherwise it's still the same science of interpretation of past events that cannot be tested or proved. Hutton's interpretation of Siccar Point is that the bottom part had to have been made vertical before the upper part was laid down, but there is no way to test that and I hope to prove it eventually with a real test, which I hope is possible for the idea that the lower strata were buckled while the upper were in place.

As for Darwin, his observations are all of microevolution and do not prove the ToE. His finches are just varieties of finches, his Galapagos turtles just a variety of the mainland turtles and so on.

You forgot to say, "Amen!" after your post.

You really should add that, you know, as what you are doing is preaching, or as noted above, apologetics.

You should never entertain the idea that you are doing science of any kind. You are simply not qualified.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 11:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 11:19 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 165 of 614 (731901)
07-01-2014 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
07-01-2014 11:37 AM


Re: Amen!
I've read a ton of apologetics, the point is that we're talking about science here and what I've said IS scientific and calling it apologetics deserves a punch in the nose.

What you are doing is not science. It is pure apologetics.

If you were doing science you would accept reliable evidence no matter the consequences. Instead you pick and choose the evidence you will accept based on a priori beliefs.

You have even admitted that the bible is your chief source of evidence, and that anything that contradicts it is wrong.

So no, you are not doing science no matter how much you try to rationalize it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 11:37 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 209 of 614 (731983)
07-02-2014 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by ringo
07-02-2014 1:12 PM


Why don't creationists...
So why doesn't the entire creationist communty spend some millions on research instead of on propaganda? Why is nothing actually being done in what you call "real" science?

Because the one time they tried it showed that science was right.

The RATE project was financed by over $1 million in creationist money. Here are two reviews:

Assessing the RATE Project: Essay Review by Randy Isaac:
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/rate-ri.htm

Do the RATE Findings Negate Mainstream Science (in two parts)?:
https://www.softwaremonkey.org/RTB/newsletter/2007-07.pdf
https://www.softwaremonkey.org/RTB/newsletter/2007-08.pdf


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by ringo, posted 07-02-2014 1:12 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 258 of 614 (732121)
07-03-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:39 PM


Re: Siccar Point
It ought to be a very simple obvious matter to just acknowledge that science that deals with the prehistoric past cannot have the certainty that testable laboratory sciences have.

Perhaps those sciences can't work things out to the number of decimal points that some other sciences can, but that is a far cry from saying that they are all wrong, which is what you are doing.

And you are doing it not because of some weakness in the methodologies of those sciences, but simply because you won't accept the answers that those sciences develop.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:58 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 269 of 614 (732144)
07-03-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:58 PM


Apologetics again
Well, actually what I mean to be saying is that since it's interpretive it's not set in concrete, that's really all.

Now, that I can agree with.

I would never consider any of the theories I develop to explain my archaeological data as being set in concrete.

But you have been claiming that, in essence, we can't know anything about the past if there was nobody there to witness it. That is just plain wrong.

I came to realize there is a weakness in the methodology because of my commitment to the Flood, of course, and wouldn't have realized it otherwise, but there IS a weakness in the methodology nevertheless and that has to be acknowledged. You'd rather the weakness were just politely glossed over I suppose.

You have yet to point out a weakness. What your entire argument boils down to is "The bible said it, so I'll believe it. And I'll make up any story I can to support that--doesn't matter if it makes sense or not."

That's not a scientific method. That's apologetics.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 2:00 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 273 of 614 (732154)
07-03-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
07-03-2014 2:00 PM


Re: Apologetics again
The weakness has already been stated a million times here. The weakness is that information from the prehistoric unwitnessed past is not testable -- or let's say very rarely testable since I may have a test for angular unconformities -- and therefore remains hypothetical and unprovable...

Sorry, that is all false.

As one example, we can test ideas and findings from the archaeological past by finding similar sites and testing those. If we think a certain tool type was developed at a specific time in a specific area, further excavations can determine whether that hypothesis is accurate or not.

When an hypothesis is supported in a number of cases, it can be elevated to the level of a theory. As has been "stated a million times here" a theory is the single best explanation for a given set of facts, is contradicted by no relevant facts, and allows predictions to be made.

Nowhere is there anything said about "proof," as that is not really a part of science.

Your objections to the study of the past stem not from your informed knowledge of the scientific method, but your unwillingness to accept its results. Your arguments are apologetics start to finish.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 2:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 296 of 614 (734639)
07-31-2014 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
07-31-2014 9:57 PM


Re: groan
This is normal sleuthing of what can be seen of the physical situation of the rocks by one's very own eyes.

Yes! You get it!

And this is what shows the old earth and that there is no evidence of a global flood during recent times.

It is when one accepts old tribal myth's over what can be seen with one's very own eyes that one is led astray.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 07-31-2014 9:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 08-01-2014 1:14 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
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