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Author Topic:   SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 614 (718775)
02-08-2014 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by PaulK
02-08-2014 1:06 PM


Re: How about forensic science?
We both know that creation is a farm "grander" claim than evolution by the standards you set forward. And you know that the idea that humans have existed forever isn't tenable either.

The above statement is true, but I think it misses a point.

Essentially nobody believes in Creation Science because of anything like the scientific method. YECs believe that Eve was created from Adam's rib because the Bible says so. They may believe in a few other things like a vapor canopy because their pastor told them it was true.

Why then should a YEC proponent care if there is no acceptable non-historical scientific evidence for Genesis given that he is accepting it on faith anyway? Isn't it pointless then to argue that the scientific basis for their own beliefs is even shakier than what they reject?

The flip side of the coin is that the observational science argument is a farce anyway. The argument has nothing to do with how they formed their beliefs, it is simply a rationalization for a conclusion already reached. Using the argument is the verbal equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears. It is pretty easy to show that YECs use and accept the results of investigations that are not qualitatively different from the science they reject.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2014 1:06 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 614 (730309)
06-27-2014 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
06-27-2014 3:28 AM


Here's a rough sketch of what I have in mind:

You are never going to get to something credible they way you are doing it. Geology is not simply about looking at rocks and making stuff up, but that's all of the credit you are giving geologists in your approach. You apparently believe they are total idiots.

I cannot even tell where you are going with your attempt at biology.

I'd recommend that you start with the basics of how the ages of geological features are estimated. A good place to start might be with Dr. Adequate's book. I don't expect you to be convinced by anything you find, but perhaps you'll learn a bit about geology as a science.

Alternatively, you might start with something a bit simpler. I would suggest dating the ages of the pyramids that scientists believe were built right around the time Ussher dates the Flood. Almost impossible for the Flood have happened at that time if scientists are correct.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-27-2014 3:28 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 06-27-2014 4:09 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 136 of 614 (730497)
06-28-2014 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
06-27-2014 4:09 AM


Siccar Point was interpreted by one man looking at it and arriving at his conclusion. He argued others into accepting his conclusion. That's all there was to it.

What you are describing here is hypothesis formation which is simply the coming up with an explanation that fits the facts as they are known. Forming a hypothesis is only the very earliest part of the scientific method. Hypothesizing is the only part that I see you make attempts apply when you come up with Creationist explanations for geology. If geologist did no better than that, then I agree that your accusations would have basis.

To some extent, and I'd argue that to a large extent, the process of coming up with the hypothesis is largely irrelevant. I've seen people here saying the General Relativity is bogus because Einstein used thought experiments. But Einstein's thought experiments imply allowed him to see that there were errors in classical thinking. Einstein put in nearly a decade of work afterwards finding ways to rigorously and mathematically express the implications of his thought experiments, and yes some aesthetic considerations, before coming up with a set of equations that have been verified by countless experiments, and that explain phenomena Einstein never observed.

The process of coming up with the hypothesis is largely irrelevant to the success of the scientific method. It matters little whether the Bible, aesthetic considerations, or extrapolation is used. What matters is that the hypothesis explains what we see, and that the hypothesis is testable.

One might make similar observations about Darwin's work. Whatever criticisms one might make about the extent to which evolution is proven correct by the observations and thought processes of Charles Darwin as expressed in "Origin of Species", the basis for the acceptance of the theory of evolution is well beyond Darwin's work.

As for Siccar Point. I understand the issue for Creationists. Back in the 18th century, people largely accepted Hutton's hypothesis without much rigorous scientific method. But the real reason to accept Hutton's conclusions today is that they fit the evidence gained subsequently. It is entirely irrelevant today that there was no geological dating available in the 18th century. It is relevant that we know more about the geological processes, chemical, and physical processes are possible in the earth and what kinds of rocks form as a result of those processes.

And that's the basis on which I would counter your accusation that Siccar point represents just one man's opinion. That's simply not the state of geology today.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 06-27-2014 4:09 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 11:07 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 614 (731899)
07-01-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
07-01-2014 11:19 AM


Re: Amen!
HBD needs a good punch in the nose for calling science apologetics.

Do you know what apologetics is? My father used to teach the subject at a theological university. Apologetics is nothing to apologize for. If, in fact you were actually doing that, you are to be commended.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 11:19 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 11:37 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 166 of 614 (731902)
07-01-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
07-01-2014 11:37 AM


You cannot possibly be doing science.
what I've said IS scientific and calling it apologetics deserves a punch in the nose.

It cannot possibly be science given your own words.

If it were science we would have a hypothesis and evidence based testing. The testing would include both verifying the hypothesis is true and that the null hypothesis is false by using evidence based testing of the hypothesis.

According to you though, testing is impossible. So regardless of whether geologists believe that testing actually is possible, I know that you are not even trying to test your hypothesis.

So you are not doing science. Science is not telling stories even if the stories turn out to be true.

And nobody is afraid of your silly punches.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 11:37 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 175 of 614 (731919)
07-01-2014 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
07-01-2014 3:44 PM


Re: Siccar Point
Doesn't change the fact that DNA structure is absolutely KNOWN, testable and provable and not subject to interpretation

The structure is known despite the fact that no one can see the atoms in the individual molecule. The structure is known via the interpretation of test results.

On the other hand, the layer structure of angular unconformities is exactly known because we've seen them. Geologists test their hypothesis about how they are formed both by looking for formation evidence and by the absence of observational evidence that would support counter hypothesis. In short they use the scientific method.

Why is it that you think your proposals are scientific while those of geologists are not?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 3:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 614 (731977)
07-02-2014 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by PaulK
07-01-2014 4:12 PM


Re: Science or Apologetics ?
Not if the evidence has to be interpreted, which Siccar Point does.

Strike one against Faith, This is a silly objection.

It is a silly objection, but it is also the core objection behind the denigration of geology. The only evidence that needs no interpretation is a direct observation of the phenomena under investigation. No inference of any kind is allowed.

In short as long as nobody saw it, where the "it" is something contrary to a belief, we can say that "it" is not science.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2014 4:12 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 206 of 614 (731978)
07-02-2014 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
07-01-2014 5:37 PM


The author disagrees but the point is that this is how scientists have viewed it.

That's how some people have viewed it. Seriously Faith, if the standard for convincing was simply providing an opinion paper, there'd be little for you to disagree about. The overwhelming opinion of geology among scientists is that it is a scientific discipline.

People are not simply blindly defending the position that geological hypotheses are testable. They are actually providing examples. Responding as if those things had not been provided is the height of denial.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 5:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 217 of 614 (731994)
07-02-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
07-02-2014 3:24 PM


Re: Siccar Point
Yes there are correct and incorrect interpretations, but the point is that when you are dealing with past one-time events ALL YOU HAVE is interpretation, you DO NOT HAVE a method for testing if your interpretation is correct

Right. For example, there is no way to tell well after the conception event, whether Sam, Joe, or Bill is the father of the Sue's baby. All of that DNA testing that looks at everything except who mounted Sue last year is just hog wash.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 07-02-2014 3:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 07-02-2014 3:29 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 614 (732003)
07-02-2014 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
07-02-2014 3:29 PM


Re: Siccar Point
THE PREHISTORICV UNWITNESSED PAST? I guess so.

You can repeat that if you want to. But it is not helpful to your argument.

DNA testing does not stop working on even prehistoric situations, and the questions of whether there were witnesses is not relevant. So your qualification is complete nonsense.

And I note that the limitation does not keep you from making up nonsense about SICCAR point. Who witnessed that?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 07-02-2014 3:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 264 of 614 (732132)
07-03-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:58 PM


Re: Siccar Point
Well, actually what I mean to be saying is that since it's interpretive it's not set in concrete, that's really all. Hutton's reasoning about Siccar Point is reasonable enough but it's open to being wrong

If you had actually said something like that before most of us would not be thinking of you as a buffoon. But it is pretty clear that the "not set in stone" sentiment is not what you expressed in your original statements. The kind of uncertainty you are talking about now would not make geology unscientific. It would just make it less certain that other sciences.

And of course, I would disagree with you on the amount of uncertainty that exists regarding Siccar point, but ultimately that is pointless. The fact that the earth is greater than 4 billion years old is just as certain as is the structure of DNA as is the fact that structures at Siccar point were not formed by a global Flood at anytime in the last 4-5000 years. The evidence for those things come from many sciences including, but not limited to geology.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 267 of 614 (732137)
07-03-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
07-03-2014 1:04 PM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
Yes that's true. Creationism is also interpretive and historical.

In fact there is nothing more to Creationism than that. There is no scientific method based support any aspect of literal Genesis Creation or the Great Flood. None at all. The same cannot be said for scientific theories to the contrary.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 614 (732200)
07-04-2014 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
07-03-2014 2:00 PM


Re: Apologetics again
The weakness is that information from the prehistoric unwitnessed past is not testable -- or let's say very rarely testable since I may have a test for angular unconformities

Interesting. So it is not, in principle, impossible to test the prehistoric, unwitnessed past. It's just that you can do it and geologists cannot.

Incredibly stupid argument given your demonstrated knowledge of geology. You've pretty much given the game away.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 2:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 07-05-2014 9:52 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 407 of 614 (735116)
08-06-2014 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


I think the distinction in the end comes down to whether there are witnesses or not. And you'll get that all wrong too.

Nobody witnessed the creation of the Grand Canyon, but that does not stop you from blathering on about that.

But as has also been pointed out, nobody has ever witnessed fusion on the sun, the atoms that make up water, or quarks.

For the Blithering Idiots, Raving Lunatics, Cowardly Conformists, Barbarian Bigots and all the rest of you.

Nice. I'm rubber you are glue.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:18 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:31 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 414 by herebedragons, posted 08-06-2014 7:37 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 434 of 614 (735219)
08-07-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
08-06-2014 9:30 AM


Well, there's some solace in having my prediction so thoroughly confirmed.

Some prediction...

You posted the same old crap assertions about not being able to do science on old stuff and nobody bought it for about the eighteenth time. Then you act surprised.

That sequence of events is just about the definition of insanity.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 9:30 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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