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Author Topic:   SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 515 of 614 (736148)
09-04-2014 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by Percy
09-04-2014 8:16 AM


Re: Reply to "What I mean by the Unwitnessed Past"
The Nobel Prize isn't given for discoveries that are still being "hotly debated,
I think this is right. But the process of building the consensus might involve than just showing a single paper.
Also, while the double helix is a striking and important feature of the molecule, Watson, Crick et al. + Franklin figured out a lot more about the structure of DNA than that. The Nobel prize was not awarded for just recognizing the helical structure.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 09-04-2014 8:16 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 529 of 614 (736661)
09-11-2014 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by edge
09-11-2014 2:52 PM


Re: Faith responds about "proof"
I think that when Faith says that we have no evidence, she misspeaks. Facts are facts and they cannot be simply dismissed. I think what she means is that the interpretation of those facts is wrong.
Faith is wrong, but I think she is expressing herself properly. If the facts actually support both the scientific explanation as well as Faith's then the facts are not evidence for either proposition over the other.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by edge, posted 09-11-2014 2:52 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by Coyote, posted 09-11-2014 10:14 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 535 of 614 (736735)
09-12-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by Percy
09-12-2014 7:51 AM


Re: Faith Posts a 9/11 Update
When scientists say they have proven something
How often do scientists even bother with the word proof?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by Percy, posted 09-12-2014 7:51 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by edge, posted 09-12-2014 4:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 537 by Percy, posted 09-12-2014 4:35 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 538 of 614 (736775)
09-13-2014 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by Percy
09-12-2014 4:35 PM


Re: Faith Posts a 9/11 Update
Faith uses "prove" in the Ken Ham sense.
It is a given that the Bible is the truth and the undisputable Word of God in literal form, and that science is tentative and definitely in error when it contradicts the Bible. Therefore the truth can easily lie in whatever uncertainty that exists in scientific results and only mathematical proof from Biblical premises can remove all uncertainty. Maybe not even that.
Even if you demonstrate that one of Faith's scenarios is wrong, that simply means that a different, Bible supported scenario is correct even if she cannot come up with it now or ever.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Percy, posted 09-12-2014 4:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by Percy, posted 09-13-2014 8:54 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 541 of 614 (736841)
09-13-2014 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Percy
09-13-2014 8:54 AM


Re: Faith Posts a 9/11 Update
I don't know what the "Ken Ham sense" of the word "prove" is. A Google search didn't find anything that helped me find the answer.
Ken Ham says, no matter what you claim science implies, you weren't there.
My best guess of what you're saying is that because Faith believes nothing can contradict the Bible, evidence proving the Bible wrong cannot exist.
That's the end result yes, but that is not quite what I mean.
The idea is that the scientific method requires that we draw inferences from observations and to use inductive reasoning. It is not controversial to say that such processes do not produce 100 percent certainty. Every time science disagrees with the Bible, science is simply in error.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Percy, posted 09-13-2014 8:54 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Percy, posted 09-13-2014 9:25 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 543 of 614 (736856)
09-13-2014 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Percy
09-13-2014 9:25 PM


Re: Faith Posts a 9/11 Update
Oh, sure, I know Faith believes that, but she's making up her own definition of "evidence", and then using that definition to misdefine "prove". You'd think she'd realize that when her beliefs force her to make up her own private definitions that she'd realize something's amiss, but apparently not.
I disagree with this characterization. You've already acknowledged that there is a sense in which Faith is correct about the definition of evidence. And of course there is a mathematical definition of proof that is not really all that far from the definition Faith insists on.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Percy, posted 09-13-2014 9:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Percy, posted 09-14-2014 2:30 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 547 of 614 (736888)
09-14-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Percy
09-14-2014 2:30 AM


Re: Faith Posts a 9/11 Update
I hope I've been clear that I believe that definition wrong. It should be obvious that it is self-evidently wrong.
I'm referring to the formulation that Taq provided. You acknowledged that Faith's definition was consistent with Taq's but there was no explicit indication of disapproval. You've just continued on as if that exchange never happened.
Taq's definition is just fine. It's also pretty close to the definition of evidence used in law. If you disagree with it, that's also fine, but it reduces your rejection of Faith's definition to merely a difference of opinion.
And even with Taq's definition, Faith is still wrong with regard to whether or not we have evidence. Because the facts we refer to do distinguish between Faith's position and yours. So they are evidence.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Percy, posted 09-14-2014 2:30 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Percy, posted 09-14-2014 3:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 549 of 614 (736898)
09-14-2014 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Percy
09-14-2014 3:22 PM


Re: Faith Posts a 9/11 Update
Faith knows what evidence is, but she puts a qualifier on it that evidence that doesn't correctly support a claim is not evidence. She needs an excuse for ignoring inconvenient evidence, so she makes up a definition of evidence that serves that purpose.
As you are doubtless aware, I am no fan of Faith's behavior here. But I think this characterization is wrong. Generally speaking, Faith usually presents her own ideas about what the evidence says. Were she to be correct, she would also be right about the evidence.
Perhaps the difference lies only in what we think are Faith's motivations for what she does. I think she is sincere but wrong, your position is that she is just making excuses.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Percy, posted 09-14-2014 3:22 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by Percy, posted 09-14-2014 5:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 552 of 614 (736910)
09-14-2014 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Percy
09-14-2014 5:12 PM


Re: Faith Posts a 9/11 Update
Faith has demonstrated time and again that she has no aptitude for introspection or self awareness.
Nicely understated. . Almost Britishly so...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Percy, posted 09-14-2014 5:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 558 of 614 (744583)
12-12-2014 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Dr Adequate
12-12-2014 11:30 AM


historical science is came by only observational .
Dr Adequate writes:
What's the word "only" doing in there?
My guess is that the word "only" is supposed to mean that you cannot say things happened if somebody was not there to see them.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-12-2014 11:30 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 564 of 614 (746040)
12-31-2014 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by Percy
12-31-2014 7:28 AM


Re: To recap...
More Ark news.
Ky. rejects $18M in tax incentives for Noah's Ark park
quote:
FRANKFORT, Ky. A proposed Noah's Ark theme park in northern Kentucky has been turned down for around $18 million in state tax incentives amid concerns that it will promote religion and violate the separation of church and state.
But the group behind the project Answers in Genesis says it is considering legal action in federal court.
The state Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet said in a letter Wednesday that the Ark Encounter theme park has changed its position on hiring policies since it originally filed for incentives in 2010 and now intends to discriminate in hiring based on religion.
Okay I can see this happening, but...
quote:
It also said the park has evolved from a tourist attraction into an extension of the ministry activities undertaken by Answers in Genesis, which promotes a literal interpretation of the Bible's Old Testament and argues that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.
Say what? So the state didn't originally see that a Noah's Ark theme park project led by Ken Ham was going to be one of AIG's "ministry activities". No judge is going to believe that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by Percy, posted 12-31-2014 7:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 566 of 614 (746075)
01-01-2015 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 565 by RAZD
01-01-2015 2:18 PM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Take a solid block of wood -- is it "viable" on land? in the sea? The answer would be yes unless you can demonstrate some unknown stress on wood after it reaches a certain size.
Why would such stresses have to be unknown? Don't we already know about stresses on the beam of ships that increase with the length of the beam? That's certainly the case for the stress applied when waves pass under the keel.
And surely we've done enough cantilever problems to be skeptical about a wooden crane?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by RAZD, posted 01-01-2015 2:18 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by RAZD, posted 01-02-2015 9:06 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 568 by ringo, posted 01-02-2015 11:23 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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