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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 1 of 397 (720619)
02-25-2014 12:05 PM


So, this recent Bill that is awaiting the signature of Gov. Jan Brewer is yet another shining example of the legislators in Arizona not understanding...pretty much anything that is occuring in the world.
Al Melvin was on Anderson Cooper defending the bill and its ability to protect religious freedom, but had no answer for why this bill was even necessary in a state that does not view homsexuals as a protected class. In fact, our "esteemed" state senator/Governor candidate did not even admit that if someone was fired simply for being gay or lesbian this would constitute discrimination. Cooper did not even ask if it was discrimination in Arizona, but just if he considered someone being fired for this reason an example of discrimination.
Source
Another shining example of the intelligence currently in residence in our State Senate is the fact that three Republicans have come forward saying they just voted yes because of limited time and explanation about the scope of the Bill. Had these three voted how they now, less than one week later, say they should have, the measure would have lost in the Senate 16-14. Instead, because of the strong right in AZ, they bowed to the party and now have to try and save face before upcoming elections.
Source
Is there a possible purpose to this bill, in a state that says it is okay to discriminate on the basis of sexuality anyways. Would an atheist have the freedom to refuse a Christian because their presence puts an undue burden on the atheist to be respectful because so much of what atheists say has a tendency to offend the religious? Could a Muslim refuse service to a Christian because of the historical animosity between the two groups?
How about if I were a Christian who truly believed in the verse, Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a women to teach or have authority over a man, she must be quiet." Am I allowed to operate a business and refuse to offer qualified women managerial positions because of my religious beliefs?
This law is, in my opinion, an exercise in futility (similar to 1070), that will eventually be crushed as unconstitutional and I think for this reason, and the massive loss of business (possibly the Super Bowl as well), that Jan Brewer will veto this legialation and may have a little sit down with the Repubs in the Senate and try and tone them down slightly. Any other thoughts on the Bassackwardsness of my state with this current legislation? Does anyone think that it has any qualities that would allow it to stand up to constitutional scrutiny?

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Diomedes, posted 02-25-2014 2:04 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 02-25-2014 3:03 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied
 Message 5 by Taq, posted 02-25-2014 5:44 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(8)
Message 100 of 397 (720842)
02-27-2014 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Faith writes:
Do I have this wrong or didn't this proposed law come about to protect Christian business owners such as bakers who refused on moral grounds to make a wedding cake for homosexuals or photographers who refused on moral grounds to photograph a gay wedding ceremony? And if this is its basis, apparently you are all in favor of forcing these business people to act against their conscience? Really? isn't this tyranny? Whatever happened to freedom?
Actually Faith, you do have this wrong, mainly because you are unaware of the laws that currently exist in my home state. That is not your fault as I am sure I am unaware of many laws in your home state as well. The interesting aspect that one should focus on is what classes of citizens are considered protected in the state of Arizona. According to Arizona law the protected classes of citizens include based on Sex, Race, Color, Genetic Information, Religion, Disability, National Origin, Citizenship Status and Age. Notice how one class of citizens is noticably missing from that list, sexual orientation. It is fully legal already in this state to discriminate based on sexual orientation, as long as it does not apply to Federal items. This is obviously a terrible thing, but the law they tried to implement would have allowed basic refusal of service and created an even more second class of citizen. A photographer can already deny services to a commitment ceremony in Arizona, which would not even matter since any form of same sex union is banned in our state with our moronic Marriage Protection Act. We can't fix this problem until we can literally change our state constitution, unless the Supreme Court gets off its ass and declares these types of bans unconstitutional, a decision that is definitely looming. However, by choosing to do business with the public, you should be required to offer your services to all members of the public, without endorsing what you serve for. A photographer is not required to sign an affadavit declaring same sex okay by him or her to photograph the event. There is no consent given by the photographer, they are merely a recording device and nothing more. The conscience of the businessperson should not be affected in anyway to give a service they willingly chose to offer in the public square. In fact, by refusing the service for nothing but discriminatory reasons the businessperson has knowingly lied about the service they purported to offer to everyone.
All the protections guaranteed for religion are covered under the Bill of Rights and no further laws need to be enacted to protect religion from anything. There is a great article about whether or not someone is infringing upon your religion and it talks about how wanting your religion to be surperior in the public sector is not protected, which is what these religious legislators tried for. Otherwise, would you be okay with a business that refused managerial employment to qualified women because of Timothy 2:12? Please, let me her your answer to that question, as it would be protected under the Religious Protection attempt made in Arizona.
Good job, Jan Brewer for vetoing the bill and not only claiming that it was because of business threats, but also because it was a stupid law that should not have been passed.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 102 of 397 (720846)
02-27-2014 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by NoNukes
02-27-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Faith writes:
The problem for those AZ senators is that the business people who fork out the money they need to campaign did not like the bill and were vocal in their displeasure. Thoughts of losing out on the Super bowl danced before their eyes.
Yes, and they had historical references to show that the NFL is not afraid to move the Super Bowl out of a city that does not adhere to the NFL's policies. The example set was seen in 1990 when the voters of Arizona did not approve Martin Luther King Jr. day as a State Holiday. The 1993 Super Bowl was supposed to be in Arizona, but the NFL moved it quickly to the Rose Bowl in Pasadena.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 02-27-2014 6:07 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 135 of 397 (720926)
02-28-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
02-28-2014 1:42 AM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Because that would be ridiculous, you seem like a nice enough person online, albeit sadly misinformed. Someone wanting to kill you for your beliefs seems about as likely as us flying a human to the center of Jupiter. Someone disagreeing with your beliefs, however, seems much more likely...maybe like someone catching a baseball likely. Not a foul ball, but just catching one thrown to them...in other words, you being disagreed with on your beliefs is a near certainty, death because of them a huge implausibility.
Also, Faith, I am still waiting for your answer to this question:
Would it be okay with you if I was a Bible-believing Christian whose beliefs said that because of Timothy 2:12, women should not be in positions of authority, therefore I own a business and refuse to hire qualified women for managerial positions within my company? According to my (in this case hypothetical) firmly held belief, this would be reasonable and allowed with the attempted law in AZ. So, would you be willing to defend this type of religious freedom as well Faith?

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 02-28-2014 1:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 03-01-2014 7:08 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 174 of 397 (721048)
03-03-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
03-03-2014 2:44 AM


Re: something to think about
Faith writes:
The fact that the first settlers came with the intention that God should be honored in the new world, and that the nation was populated by serious Christians for most of its history until recently -- (read Toqueville)-- is the only reasonable explanation for the enormous and rapid prosperity of America.
This is the only thing I want to mention, as Paul is doing a good job on the question of the covenant of which you speak. However, I do not think you have negated any other aspects that could have led to the rapid prosperity of America. One of the main reasons for its rapid ascent was the availability of raw materials in an unspoiled land. In the New World, there was an overabundance of resources available to the settlers, especially once they began to spread across the continent. This allowed the country to provide for its needs and have large quantities of supplies to export to other countries. One big example of a huge export that brought a lot of money to early America was Tobacco, which was shipped to all parts of the world. It grew very well in the Southern portion of the United States and allowed for an enormous market to be created for this product.
Of course, I am sure that you give credit to God for these abundant resources, but that is just shoehorning your God into the explanation because nothing more needs to be said then that nature had been relatively untouched before European settlers because of the practices of the original inhabitants of the land.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:27 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 199 of 397 (721101)
03-03-2014 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
03-03-2014 2:27 PM


Re: something to think about
Faith writes:
Yes, Tempe, being in a land with rich resources is God's blessing too. Keep in mind that it would be possible to live among such riches without knowing how to exploit them. Knowledge is also God's gift. There is no such thing as luck.
Again, you are just shoehorning your God into this reasoning, there is absolutely no reason for him to be involved. Plus, it wasn't completely unused or unclaimed resources, these were stolen from the native people of North America. So, even though God claims, "Thou shalt not steal", the people that were being so blessed gained it through armed takeover of the individuals who were already here. Science has taught us how to exploit these many resources, not God, so this is just another instance of you cramming God into an explanation which does not warrant him.
I will agree that there really is no such thing as luck when it comes to America's gains in terms of resources. There was Skill (ability to decimate the local population, claiming what was originally theirs for the colonists/America), Knowledge (gained from a strict study of the natural world and the uses of resources available), and Greed (desire for all natural resources to be under control of America and not the savages that already owned the area). Europe was a land of rich resources when it was first found as well, but we humans, especially western cultures have a tendency to reduce the available resources in an area once we arrive there.
Calling any of this God's blessing is a joke, especially since your God first chose to bless the Native American people with these gifts of abundant resources, which were then stolen from them breaking one of the commandments. Yet, even breaking one of the main "Laws" of Christianity brought blessings to those of European descent? How does this make sense at all?
Basically, Occam's Razor says there is no need to add God into an already well reasoned solution to the abundance of raw materials in North America, the ability to use these resources, or the means for taking them from the rightful owners. That can be explained simply by nature and the native people's respect for it (explains abundance), science (explains knowledge and how the means were created to decimate an indigenious population). Your God is unnecessary to this explanation....it seems all he did was say a blessing in your mind while humanity did all the legwork. What a terrible blessing when we still have to do every single step to actually get the resources. I, for one, will ignore this unneeded blessing from on high.
Back on the main topic, which is Arizona, I am glad you at least admit that you are for any type of discrimination, as long as it's religiously motivated. I'm not surprised by it because of your sick desire for a Christian theocracy in America, but I'm glad you can at least admit that you are for bigotry based on belief. Most of your fellow Christians try to avoid admitting to that fact, so I give you credit for that at least. So, I have a suggestion for you and all the rest of your fundamentalist ilk......Move to Russia. They have a fundamentalist, right wing utopia going on in that country right now that would be perfect for you and your kind. You can discriminate against homosexuals to your heart's content, you can force employee's under you to attend mass daily during the workday, and they are always cutting the budget. Enjoy your vodka and utopian, hate filled new country and leave this one to the people who would like to continue embracing freedom for everyone.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 242 of 397 (721289)
03-06-2014 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Taq
03-05-2014 11:36 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
I think this is a really valid point. Even taking the pictures or baking the cake for the ceremony, the individual can believe that the commitment ceremony is wrong and sinful...
I think this is a really good article explaining the decision that this law was supposed to be a preemptive strike against in Arizona. It discusses how, while the idea of discriminating against a minority class in a business operated in the public sector is abhorrent, we must have empathy for those who are pushed into this position because they are actually acting on sincerely held beliefs, just how those who were against inter-racial marriage had sincerely held beliefs against that type of marriage. It is a long process to change the hearts and minds of a population and decisions like this, while beneficial to society as a whole, do hurt the individuals who are feeling oppressed. It was an interesting take and one I would like to hear some opinions on, including yours Faith.
The New Mexico Supreme Court Applies Anti-Discrimination Law

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Taq, posted 03-05-2014 11:36 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2014 10:57 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:43 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 252 of 397 (721307)
03-06-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by NoNukes
03-06-2014 11:00 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
NoNukes writes:
It was probably legal to do so in AZ before this attempt to enshrine discrimination into law occurred, and I'm not so sure it isn't legal despite the veto.
Yes, you have this correct. This is the biggest idiocy involved in the passing of that law in this state. It is fully legal in Arizona to discriminate based upon sexual orientation because LGBT is not considered a protected group in our state. This is why Jan Brewer mentioned that she did not see the pressing needs of adding this law, which was so open-ended it could have added even more discrimination against other groups. Her decision to veto didn't have to do with protecting the LGBT community from discrimination, but rather from the discriminatory backlash that could be brought about by the law.
Properly, Arizona needs to get some more progressive people involved in the legislative branch and begin to move forward, removing all the discriminatory laws we have on the books. One funny thing that holds us back is that pay for State legislators is determined by popular vote, which means not many people want the gig of being a legislator because it pays less than 30,000 dollars a year in my state (our voters notoriously vote pay raises down, I think the last one was 82% opposed). I believe, and don't hold me to exact numbers, that they currently make a little over 27,000 dollars.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2014 11:00 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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