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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 397 (720718)
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Do I have this wrong or didn't this proposed law come about to protect Christian business owners such as bakers who refused on moral grounds to make a wedding cake for homosexuals or photographers who refused on moral grounds to photograph a gay wedding ceremony? And if this is its basis, apparently you are all in favor of forcing these business people to act against their conscience? Really? isn't this tyranny? Whatever happened to freedom?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 397 (720722)
02-27-2014 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by saab93f
02-27-2014 4:49 AM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
That's the bogus comparison you all try to make. Sin is not the same thing as race, and people ought to know better than to make such a comparison.
Not answering a burglary call because the people are gay is also a ridiculous comparison. They don't stop being citizens because they are gay. But being forced to make a wedding cake or take photographs which would be specifically a validation of the gay lifestyle when you consider gay marriage to be a violation of a basic principle given by God, is what I mean by tyranny.
The only thing I might want to hold the Christians to is that if they are going to stand on conscience against homosexuality they should also stand on conscience against other sins such as adultery, unmarried couples living together and all that. However there may not be a comparison here either, if it doesn't involve actually being required to validate the adultery etc.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 397 (720754)
02-27-2014 2:59 PM


Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
I responded to this thread without knowing how the law is worded, just hearing from you all a lot of hatred toward anyone who objects to the homosexual lifestyle, and remembered the incidents where business owners were sued for refusing to make a wedding cake for a homosexual wedding or take photographs for the same situation.
As I said I don't know how this law was worded but if it's intended to protect people from being forced to do such things it sounds to me like it's simply meant to protect freedom of conscience which I thought this country was supposed to be all about. You all have been making comparisons with racism which isn't the case if it is intended for the circumstances I'm remembering, and with general opposition to homosexuality which I gather may also not be what it's about, but only about being forced to do something that validates gay marriage. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.
If it is for what I'm guessing it is, then I'd doubt that either of these business owners would have refused to sell the same customers a cake over the counter or to make portrait photographs; it's only about refusing to participate in a gay wedding.
So, if that's what it's all about then let's keep this discussion specific to that sort of thing: you are all still in favor of forcing people to make wedding cakes and take photographs for a gay wedding, and deny them the freedom of conscience to refuse that kind of service?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 397 (720761)
02-27-2014 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by saab93f
02-27-2014 3:34 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
I cannot comprehend why religious conviction is at all given any more weight than if I was to refuse service because I play badminton or am an active in a political party.
Yes, this is where the culture has gone, against freedom of conscience and from the sound of it you're all happy with this and freedom of conscience is as good as dead. So when someone refuses to validate gay marriage off to prison with them. OK, that's the way it's going I guess.
What you all of course fail to recognize is that YOU are the bigoted ones who hate anyone with a moral conviction against gay marriage or the homosexual lifestyle and you are willing to force them to do YOUR will rather than their own.
Freedom is SUPPOSED to be for DIFFERING opinions. No more, obviously, now we all toe the party line or else.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 42 of 397 (720763)
02-27-2014 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Stile
02-27-2014 3:45 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Right. Like I just posted. So what's going to happen is that people with a strong moral conviction against gay marriage are going to give up their businesses and go to prison. You're even willing to redefine the situation to be sure you put it in the worst possible light. That's the way the culture is going. That's what you all want.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 397 (720777)
02-27-2014 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
02-27-2014 4:09 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
It is worded in vague terms so that it isn't a straight up (pun intended) attempt to ban gays from businesses. It allows a business owner to deny service to anyone if it goes against their deeply held religious beliefs. This means that you could have stores that ban catholics, delis that won't bake cakes for interracial couples, wedding planners that will refuse service to Catholics, etc. It is an open license for people to use their businesses as a cudgel for their bigotry. It has no place in this country.
Oh brother. Cudgel, yet, as if a businesses aren't extremely vulnerable to public opinion and exist in the first place to get customers. It's government, it's LAWS that act as the cudgel, such as laws that deny business owners the right to refuse service to anyone for whatever reason, if they are willing to risk going out of business. As Catholic Scientist replied to you, the idea that businesses would discriminate against customers for such reasons is ridiculous, and if it did happen they could be shunned by the public which should take care of that.
Why shouldjn't someone who wants to open a business have the right to take whatever customers they WANT to take? That is basic freedom. And THAT is what you are saying has no place in this country. Freedom.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 397 (720784)
02-27-2014 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
02-27-2014 4:54 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Right, smear basic moral attitudes of Christians with racism, that's all it takes. Kind of like calling Tutsis "cockroaches" and Jews "vermin." It's a common tactic of bigots like all of those here who want to deprive business owners of freedom of conscience.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 397 (720793)
02-27-2014 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Theodoric
02-27-2014 5:14 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Those of us who believe the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates it. Apparently that's all right with you. Welcome to the USSA.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 397 (720795)
02-27-2014 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Taq
02-27-2014 5:19 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Right. That's how evil gets defined as good and good as evil. Welcome to the USSA. Some "sexual preferences," need I point out, would be condemned by even you.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 397 (720802)
02-27-2014 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by NoNukes
02-27-2014 5:23 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
So we go out of business then and have to live on the streets. Same difference.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 397 (720806)
02-27-2014 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Taq
02-27-2014 5:24 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Please cite the verse where it says that you are not to do business with homosexuals.
I am not to do anything that appears to condone or promote their sexual practices and specifically gay marriage, both of which are against the Law of God. Genesis and Leviticus speak to these, and Jesus quoted the marriage law of Genesis.
Otherwise I would think a business owner should be free to choose on any grounds whatever whom to do business with. If they want to jeopardize their business that should be up to them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 397 (720808)
02-27-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Taq
02-27-2014 5:29 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
That ought to be intuitively obvious IN THE CONTEXT OF GAY MARRIAGE, but if it's not for you it's none of your business if it is for others who do regard it as a violation of conscience. Again, freedom of conscience is for those whose opinions differ with our own.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 397 (720813)
02-27-2014 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ooh-child
02-27-2014 5:32 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
I'm SO sorry, but it's those who are opposed to Christian business owners refusing service for Christian reasons who are the bigots. Right, don't open a business, right. How very very tolerant of you. Enjoy the USSA.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 87 of 397 (720816)
02-27-2014 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Taq
02-27-2014 5:36 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Again, the comparison of race with homosexuality is an absurd twisting of reality simply for the purpose of promoting bigotry against Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1553 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 397 (720817)
02-27-2014 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Taq
02-27-2014 5:38 PM


Re: Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
You are against "discrimination" against "sexual preferences," right? Apparently there are NO "sexual preferences" you would want to "discriminate" against? None whatever?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 5:38 PM Taq has replied

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