Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 52 (9178 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Anig
Upcoming Birthdays: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,104 Year: 5,361/9,624 Month: 386/323 Week: 26/204 Day: 2/24 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(3)
Message 129 of 397 (720918)
02-28-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:57 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
The obtuseness to the moral issue here is truly amazing. However, although you don't get it , again, let's leave it to the people who DO have a conscience against baking a wedding cake for a homosexual couple because to them it's like condoning gay marriage which they believe violates the Law of God.
Can you decide to not sell a cake to black people or Jews or any other racial minority in a buisness? How about atheists? How about Roman Catholics?
Do you see where this is going?
It's called discrimination. Your right to own a business does not trump someone else's right for equal treatment under the law.
Who are you or the state to dictate to a person's conscience?
It has nothing to do with conscience. You can choose not to own a business at all. It is your choice. If you do own a business, than you need to treat your customers equally. Either that or go to some other oppressive country where you can discriminate to your hearts content.
But again, if you, as a good citizen of the USSA, want to force it on Christians,
I and many other Christians vehemently disagree with you. Don't lump us in with your small subsect of Christian society.
I can only hope Christians will have the backbone to choose God over all these forces of bigotry against them no matter what the consequences.
Now, who is the bigot refusing services to a group of people?
I hope Christians have the backbone to stand up to bigots who refuse to provide equal treatment under the law.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 130 of 397 (720919)
02-28-2014 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:21 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Those of us who believe the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates it.
No it should read:
Those of us who believe in our particular interpretation of the Bible that supports our bigoted views will choose to die rather than be forced to do something that violates our bigoted views.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 131 of 397 (720921)
02-28-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Taq
02-27-2014 5:26 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
You could always serve the public in a non-discriminatory fashion.
Last I checked, baking a cake for a homosexual will not send you to Hell.
How sad, that many Christians such as Faith, forget that LOVE for God and fellow humans is the message that the gospel is centered on.
Do we forget that Jesus associated with, ate with, preached and taught to the social outcasts (tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, beggers, fisherman, the poor, criminals, cripples, non-Jews, Samaritans, non-believers, idollators, etc, etc). Jesus didn't associate with the judgemental, holier than thou, hypocritical religious establishment. He ministered to the oppressed, the abused, the down-trodden.
And you wonder why people are morally opposed to Christian fundamentalists. It is not the gospel message that many non-Christians are opposed to. It is the pharisaical, judgeamental and hypocrtical holier-than-thou attitude and mandates some "Christians" try to impose on the non-religious.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 5:26 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ooh-child, posted 02-28-2014 1:14 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 133 of 397 (720924)
02-28-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ooh-child
02-28-2014 1:14 PM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
And he really didn't have much to say about homosexuality, either.
Reportedly.
Correct, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. However, Paul does mention it as a sin in Romans, I Corinthians and I Timothy.
I am not debating whether homosexuality is considered a sin or not, because according to the Bible it is. But so are a lot of things such as not loving and caring for your spouse and family, pride, lying, fighting, cursing, gossip, unjustified anger, adultery, lust, envy, gluttony, greed, laziness, etc. All of which Christians are guilty of themselves.
However, whether you believe it to be a sin or not has no play in how you treat people. According to the Bible, Christianity, and Jesus: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23
If you turn away homosexuals than you need to turn everyone away because sin is sin according to the Bible and God. But again, the business owner is sinful too. Where do you draw the line?
This very line of logic of discriminating against homosexuals is morally inconsistent with Jesus teachings.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ooh-child, posted 02-28-2014 1:14 PM ooh-child has seen this message but not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 134 of 397 (720925)
02-28-2014 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
02-28-2014 7:10 AM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
Faith writes:
Naa, they can kill me if they want.
Martyr complex much?
Fluke Starbucker: C'mon, Auggie Ben Doggie!
Princess Anne-Droid: Get to the ship! Run for it!
Ham Salad: C'mon! Let's go!
Auggie Ben Doggie: [waving them off] No, you go on without me... I'll be all right... Don't worry about me...
Ham Salad: Aw, jeez!
Fluke Starbucker: Jeez! What a martyr!
Princess Anne-Droid: What a martyr, I can't believe this!
Ham Salad: Yeah. See ya later, you martyr
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 02-28-2014 7:10 AM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 148 of 397 (720995)
03-02-2014 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by vimesey
03-02-2014 4:46 AM


Re: Let's limit this discussion to the specifics
How much worse is it to desire a world in which everyone could be so controlled that they could actually be prevented from sinning. No thoughts of envy - of greed - no coveting of the neighbour - no lust - no wrath - no pride. Try to imagine the pale, emasculated, dystopian Stepford beings we would become
What is ironic and interesting is that is one of the main tenants that Christianity and the Bible speak about. The freedom to choose to make right or wrong decisions. That is what the whole Adam and Eve in the garden choosing whether or not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was all about. The Bible itself speaks against forcing people to choose to do good or not sin. It is a freedom granted by God. Of course, a freedom with consequences both in this life and the life to come.
Bakers, wedding photographers, etc. are not condoning a marriage by baking a cake just in the same way you are not condoning sex outside of marriage by selling condoms at a drugstore you own or work at. Or condoning alcoholism by selling alcohol or being a waiter.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by vimesey, posted 03-02-2014 4:46 AM vimesey has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(4)
Message 168 of 397 (721031)
03-03-2014 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
03-03-2014 2:44 AM


Re: something to think about
It isn't essential to the point I'm making, which is that God will bless ANY nation that honors Him and obeys His laws, and America did that for most of our history.
Oh, you mean when the United States endorsed whole-sale slavery of millions of African Americans, the mass killing and pillaging of tens of millions Native Americans, the indenturing of people from the orient, the slaughter of thousands of innocent men, women and children and the overthrow of a democratically elected government of the Philippines in the early 20th century. Yes, that was a much better government than the one we have now. I do not believe God was any more happy with that part of our history than he is with us now.
You have an uneducated and warped understanding of history due to your religiosity and fundamentalism.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:44 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Theodoric, posted 03-03-2014 10:07 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 177 of 397 (721069)
03-03-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by ringo
03-03-2014 10:43 AM


Re: something to think about
Allowing same-sex couples the same rights as any other couple is not repudiating God's laws. God administers His own laws. You don't.
IF God chooses to judge homosexuals, that's His business, not yours. If He chooses to judge you for failure to love your neighbour, that's His business too.
Ringo, you hit the nail on the head and I totally agree with you. Not all Christians believe the way Faith does. In fact many of the more rationally minded Christians leave the judging to God. We understand that hitting non-Christians with the judgmental Bible-thumping club is the worst thing you can do and pushes people away instead of bringing them to Christ. Did Jesus or any of the Apostles/Disciples try to force their beliefs through the Jewish/Roman political system? The answer is no.
In fact the NT teaches that Christians though "in this world" are not to be "part of this world" (Romans 12:2, I John 2:14). It was only later in Christian church history when the Roman government started to fall apart and Roman leaders saw the popularity of Christianity, that the church and state were integrated. Of course, this marriage between church and state led to corruption and a divergence of theology from the original message of Jesus gospel.
The modern movement of Christian fundamentalism and its entrance into secular politics (i.e. the failed Christian Coalition) is an example of the methods fundamentalists will go through to try to back up their beliefs and push these beliefs onto others. Again, this is not backed up by the Bible much less the earliest Christian church history.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 03-03-2014 10:43 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:44 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 178 of 397 (721070)
03-03-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Theodoric
03-03-2014 10:07 AM


Re: something to think about
Millions of white europeans were held in indentured servitude also. It wasn't a racial thing it was a "fuck everyone else I got mine" thing. How very christian.
Sorry I meant to add Europeans as well. And yes it was very unChristlike.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Theodoric, posted 03-03-2014 10:07 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 179 of 397 (721071)
03-03-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
03-03-2014 6:32 AM


Re: something to think about
Two thousand years of preaching by the best preachers of Christendom says you're wrong.
The "best" preachers of Christendom have been wrong at times (i.e. Martin Luther's bigotry and persecution of Jews). God through the Bible and specifically Jesus teachings should be your source not fallen humans.
The Bible speaks nothing of countries or civilizations being in a covenant agreement beyond the nation of Israel. The new covenant the NT does talk about is a covenant of grace to the Jew and Gentile (non-Jew) alike, to those who believe in his name. It has nothing to do with particular nations.
Jesus in Luke 22:10 "In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
Hebrews 8:6,7,13 "But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people ... By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
Hebrews 9:15 "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritancenow that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."
It is a fallacy to think that the United States is any more "blessed" by God than any other country. You are speaking for God in an area where he has remained silent.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 6:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:46 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 200 of 397 (721104)
03-03-2014 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Faith
03-03-2014 2:46 PM


Re: something to think about
The entire world witnessed the growth of America's amazing prosperity and marveled at it.
There were numerous empires that grew large and fell. Do you think all of them were because they were blessed by God. How about the Babylonian, Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Mongolian, Holy Roman Empire, Japanese, and Briitish? Where they prosperous because God blessed them?
You need to learn some history.
I have a pretty firm grasp of history. Just not your warped view of it.
History IS in God's hands, all of it. Nothing happens by accident.
God allows mankind to rise and fall. God's intervention into the affairs of man, only he knows the full extent of. Don't pretend you know.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 203 of 397 (721111)
03-03-2014 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
03-03-2014 2:44 PM


Re: something to think about
Yes because legal slavery, indenturtude, prostitution, and outright slaughter of millions of a land's native inhabitants by the orders of our "Christian" country is so much more Christ-like than what we have now. Or why would there need to be a Great Awakening in the British Isles and America if our country was so Christian back then. Revisionist history much?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 2:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 6:55 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 206 of 397 (721117)
03-03-2014 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
03-03-2014 6:55 PM


Re: something to think about
So provide evidence that I am wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 6:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 208 of 397 (721120)
03-03-2014 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
03-03-2014 7:29 PM


Re: something to think about
Than why are you even on this board? The whole purpose of this to reason and provide arguments for or against your position. You are so sure you are right about everything but don't provide one shred of evidence. Blind faith is not true faith.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 03-03-2014 7:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3210 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 256 of 397 (721316)
03-06-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Theodoric
03-06-2014 11:55 AM


Most Christians disagree with Faith
Where is this right of which you speak granted? I do not see the tight to refuse service anywhere. Not in Constitution or Bill of Rights or any state constitution.
There is no right to refuse service.
It is a "right" manufactured by ultra-ultra-conservatives. I would say even the vast majority of Christian denominations out there i.e. Methodists (of which I am a member), Roman Catholics, Presbyterian, Episcopalian etc. with exception of the few outlier extremists do not support the Arizona law. Even some members of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention are on the fence with this issue.
Russell Moore, the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission at the Southern Baptist Convention has recently jumped into the debate about whether wedding photographers should record same-sex weddings.
Moore wrote in a Gospel Coalition column that "the couple asking you to do this wedding aren't your enemies. They are made in the image of God and loved by him and so should be loved by us." But Moore advised against participating, saying, "But we must stand with kindness as well as with conviction."
This issues is a touchy subject, but I think some Christians are over-reacting on this and making this a bigger moral dilemna than it really is. After all, Jesus ate, drank and talked to people considered moral deginerates.
Taking photos or baking a cake is not condoning a practice any more than someone who makes a cake for an Islamic or Hindu wedding is condoning that marriage.
If you consider photographing homosexual weddings as the same as affirming that marriage, than you as a Christian would be a hypocrite if you photographed weddings of non-Christians, divorced Christians, or people who slept together before marriage (which includes some Christians). Where do you draw the line. According to the Bible, sin is sin. Those who have pre-marital sex are as guilty as homosexuals, are they not? However, no one is making a big deal of baking cakes or photographing for these couples.
Faith, I encourage you to rationally read the following three articles. The second one is from the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission at the Southern Baptist Convention (not exactly a liberal source).
Would Jesus Bake a Cake for a Gay Wedding in Arizona?...... | News & Reporting | Christianity Today
Should a Christian Photographer Work at a Same-Sex Wedding Ceremony?
Conservative Christians Selectively Apply Biblical Teachings in the Same-Sex Marriage Debate
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Theodoric, posted 03-06-2014 11:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024