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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 1023 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 1 of 397 (720619)
02-25-2014 12:05 PM


So, this recent Bill that is awaiting the signature of Gov. Jan Brewer is yet another shining example of the legislators in Arizona not understanding...pretty much anything that is occuring in the world.

Al Melvin was on Anderson Cooper defending the bill and its ability to protect religious freedom, but had no answer for why this bill was even necessary in a state that does not view homsexuals as a protected class. In fact, our "esteemed" state senator/Governor candidate did not even admit that if someone was fired simply for being gay or lesbian this would constitute discrimination. Cooper did not even ask if it was discrimination in Arizona, but just if he considered someone being fired for this reason an example of discrimination.

Source

Another shining example of the intelligence currently in residence in our State Senate is the fact that three Republicans have come forward saying they just voted yes because of limited time and explanation about the scope of the Bill. Had these three voted how they now, less than one week later, say they should have, the measure would have lost in the Senate 16-14. Instead, because of the strong right in AZ, they bowed to the party and now have to try and save face before upcoming elections.

Source

Is there a possible purpose to this bill, in a state that says it is okay to discriminate on the basis of sexuality anyways. Would an atheist have the freedom to refuse a Christian because their presence puts an undue burden on the atheist to be respectful because so much of what atheists say has a tendency to offend the religious? Could a Muslim refuse service to a Christian because of the historical animosity between the two groups?

How about if I were a Christian who truly believed in the verse, Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a women to teach or have authority over a man, she must be quiet." Am I allowed to operate a business and refuse to offer qualified women managerial positions because of my religious beliefs?

This law is, in my opinion, an exercise in futility (similar to 1070), that will eventually be crushed as unconstitutional and I think for this reason, and the massive loss of business (possibly the Super Bowl as well), that Jan Brewer will veto this legialation and may have a little sit down with the Repubs in the Senate and try and tone them down slightly. Any other thoughts on the Bassackwardsness of my state with this current legislation? Does anyone think that it has any qualities that would allow it to stand up to constitutional scrutiny?


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


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Diomedes
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 973
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 2 of 397 (720625)
02-25-2014 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-25-2014 12:05 PM


How about if I were a Christian who truly believed in the verse, Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a women to teach or have authority over a man, she must be quiet." Am I allowed to operate a business and refuse to offer qualified women managerial positions because of my religious beliefs?

Well that is the question they will never outright answer. To go one further, what if you are a Muslim man that wishes to deny service to Jewish patrons? Or women?

This reminds me of the asinine discussions that occurred at the beginning of the civil rights movement, when people attempted to claim 'persecution' of their freedom to do business because they were 'forced' to cater to African Americans and could not discriminate against them.

Same logic (or lack thereof) applies here. Which is why I also get irked when they attempt to use their notion of religious freedom to denote which medical procedures they will disallow because it violates their 'faith'. i.e. deny birth control because they are Catholic.

By that logic, a Jehovah Witness running a business should be able to state that their medical insurance should not have to cover blood transfusions. It's moronic. Arizona is making a fool of itself. Notice however that the two senators are actually against this bill. Probably because they are looking at the poll numbers and realizing it will backfire on them. Not unlike the government shutdown.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 3 of 397 (720629)
02-25-2014 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-25-2014 12:05 PM


"limited time and explanation"

That's state legislature speak for "perhaps I miscalculated the effect on my reelection possibilities". If the senators did not understand the bill given all the publicity it got, then they are idiots.

Even though some minorities are notoriously homophobic, many will remember the state dragging its heels on the MLK holiday. I think they'll see this bill for what it is. State approval of bigotry.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(8)
Message 4 of 397 (720633)
02-25-2014 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by NoNukes
02-25-2014 3:03 PM



we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(1)
Message 5 of 397 (720639)
02-25-2014 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-25-2014 12:05 PM


The same bill is being considered by the legislators in my state. It is a direct reaction to the "Add the Words" campaign that is trying to get LGBT added to the protected classes list. They are trying to negate what is quickly becoming an inevitable extension of long derserved rights to the gay community.

I do find that Republicans tend to lack a sense of irony. They are trying to push through a religious freedom act that actually allows public places to discriminate against people based on their religious beliefs. In a state that has a relatively large Mormon population, it could actually lead to people putting up signs that Mormons can not enter their place of business.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 6 of 397 (720686)
02-26-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Taq
02-25-2014 5:44 PM


The Kansas Senate decided not to consider a similar bill after it passed in the house chamber. Tennessee abandoned a similar bill. So far North Carolina has done nothing with their religious freedom act.

So be counted AZ. You are in territory even TN, NC, and KS won't blunder into.

Next up, Illinois.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 397 (720694)
02-26-2014 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
02-26-2014 1:30 PM


Next up, Illinois.

Nah, we even allow gay marriage now.


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Diomedes
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 973
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 8 of 397 (720696)
02-26-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
02-26-2014 1:30 PM


So be counted AZ. You are in territory even TN, NC, and KS won't blunder into.

Next up, Illinois.

My neck of the woods (Florida) doesn't seem to be pushing anything either. And we have medical ganja on the ballot in November!


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(6)
Message 9 of 397 (720699)
02-26-2014 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Taq
02-25-2014 5:44 PM


it could actually lead to people putting up signs that Mormons can not enter their place of business.

You WILL BE CHECKED for magic underwear!!!


"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 10 of 397 (720703)
02-26-2014 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coragyps
02-26-2014 4:22 PM


You WILL BE CHECKED for magic underwear!!!

Nice to see that others use the same humor I do.


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Diomedes
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 973
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(2)
Message 11 of 397 (720704)
02-26-2014 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coragyps
02-26-2014 4:22 PM


Magic Underwear


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 12 of 397 (720709)
02-26-2014 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Diomedes
02-26-2014 5:18 PM


Re: Magic Underwear
Boner-proof

Nothing there a little pair of scissors couldn't fix.

Wait. I'm already circumcised! I'm in the wrong thread again!


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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 13 of 397 (720711)
02-26-2014 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Diomedes
02-26-2014 5:18 PM


Re: Magic Underwear
It's funny. I spend quite a bit of time in Utah and I have often seen Mormon women wearing pants low enough to show off their special undies. It is so common, that I am starting to wonder if it's some sort of mating call or something.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 397 (720712)
02-27-2014 12:20 AM


The governor has announced that she is vetoing the bill. AZ steps away from the abyss.

Meanwhile here in NC, every one of the Republican candidates vying for Kay Hagan's Senate seat has taken the position that the state ought to be able to outlaw birth control. Only three of the five are on record as saying that the state should not actually do it.

McCain would be a progressive here.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 397 (720718)
02-27-2014 3:31 AM


Such a groundswell of opinion against freedom of religion
Do I have this wrong or didn't this proposed law come about to protect Christian business owners such as bakers who refused on moral grounds to make a wedding cake for homosexuals or photographers who refused on moral grounds to photograph a gay wedding ceremony? And if this is its basis, apparently you are all in favor of forcing these business people to act against their conscience? Really? isn't this tyranny? Whatever happened to freedom?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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